Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:45:00 -0400
Reply-To: tmiller <tmiller@VCMAILS.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: tmiller <tmiller@VCMAILS.COM>
Subject: Re: Synthetic oils in the vanagon
In-Reply-To: <006301c447e3$f267be50$d9032a45@ttowerdef17>
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Doug in Calif wrote:
>Well,
>Its obvious which side of the argument I am in here.
>I say spend those extra oil dollars on your sweethearts and you will likely get a great deal more out of your money.
>
Might be good for your sweatheart, but not your pocketbook or the
environment.
>To begin with, the only research I need is that the standard oils you can buy meet and exceed both the stated requirements
>listed in the VW owners manuals of ALL vanagons,the Bentley bible, The current VW factory, and VW dealers, today.
>So there's MY basic research to support not needing to pay extra for synthetics.
>There has been no revision from VW factory to switch vanagons over to synthetics.
>
They do mention the use of synthetic oils in the owners manuals. That
is the lubricant of choice in VW's in Europe.
>You "pro synthetic guys" have the burden of proof that I somehow "need" to run it in my vanagon, or that there is some significant benefit if any, its not the other way around.
>YOU are suggesting the change from what is recommended in the owners manual of the VW as well as HUNDREDS of other new vehicles today NOT requiring synthetics, not ME.
>You are the ones claiming some benefit, I say show me PROOF, real data not "my oil stays cleaner longer"...."it runs cooler" uh huh......Sorry I don't buy it.
>
Your owners manual predates most synthetic lubricants so they are not
mentioned in your manual. Vacuum tube TV's went out about the time
Vanagon's hit the US market. Only the picture tube is left and they are
rapidly going away in favor of flat screens. Do you still insist on
tube technology? Lubricants advance with time as well. Even petroleum
lubes. The problem is oil companies don't like to spend more on the
additives than they want to get for the oil. I spend enough money on
maintenance, and the use of a 99 cent a quart oil is not in the cards.
It is actually cheaper to use the synthetic because you do not change it
nearly as often. Why do you think synthetic oils are ONLY used in jet
engines? Dino doesn't cut the mustard.
>I have torn down hundreds of air cooled beetle engines, which were driven and abused as hard as any engine, several Porsche engines, and now a few waterboxer engines.
>I have inspected EVERY PART in these engines, where is this advantage? The main, cam and rod bearings?, the rings or cylinder walls? the cam followers? the valve guides? Where is this "magical" lack of wear ?
>I do not see it.
>
The idea is to get equal or better wear with 1/5th the oil changes or
better. I used AMSOIL 15W-40 in my Rabbit diesel and had oil analysis
check for wear metals and to advise when I should change the oil. Every
7500 miles I sent a 4 oz. sample to Cleveland Technical Center. They
always came back with oil good for continued use and much lower wear
particles in the oil. They finally told me to change the oil at 40,000
miles due to the viscosity approaching 15W-50 from soot buildup and
winter approaching. Wear particles did not rise at all. I put 300,000
on that car and sold it to a friend of mine. It is still running.
Consider how much less oil we would need from Saudi Arabia if we all
practiced long drain intervals safely! After that, I just changed it
every year which was about 25K miles with a filter change in between.
My fuel economy did not change, but at 50 MPG, how would I notice a
small % increase?
>If you think you can get more mileage out of oil changes because you use synthetic you are doing FAR MORE damage to your engine and you wrongfully think you are benefiting. You WILL see the wear on the bearings from not keeping engine oil as clean as possible at all times.
>
>Combustion carbon particles get in the oil regardless of if you are using synthetics or not, so now we are comparing dirty synthetic to fresh clean dino oil.
>I will go with clean "approved rated for my vehicle" oil.
>
Very true. The idea is to remove particles under 5 micrometers so there
is not contact when flowing between the tight bearing clearances.
Particles in the 15-20 micrometer range do the most damage. Diesel soot
is 0.2 micrometers and less so they don't affect wear unless permitted
to form deposits. Proper detergent/dispersent additives prevent that.
This is why good filtration is a must with any lubricant. Sythetics can
be filtered to finer particle sizes because they do not contain the wax
and parrafins that restrict flow in petroleum oils. Big rigs use a
large bypass oil filter that filters finer than that to permit use of
the oil far beyond 25,000 miles. With synthetics, bypass filtering, and
oil analysis, they can go 100,000 miles between changes with no
problem. The resultant reduced engine wear allows them to extend in
frame overhauls from 275,000 miles to 500,000 miles or more. I've seen
it done.
If you change your synthetic every 3-5 thousand miles now you are
spending ALLOT more cash than me over 100K miles.
This is what the oil companies want you to do because their oil
additives won't go any further. With synthetics, that is not a
limitation. 3 times dino drain intervals are conservative as a result.
I bet I spend much less than you on vanagon lubrication with my
synlubes. And I don't generate 5-8 times the waste oil that needs to be
imported and then recycled when changed each year.
>Vanagons do not suffer from lubrication or oil problems that synthetics are the answer for, they are overkill in the vanagon are and not needed period.
>
They seem to be tough little machines. But the advantages are even
longer life between rebuilds and less oil used. That sells it for me.
>Buy yourself some spare head gaskets and retorque your heads every 40-50K and you will be doing ALLOT more for your engine life.
>Save your money or put it towards what you will really get something back from, like perhaps another vanagon, new suby motor. 15inch wheels or flowers for your gal.
>
That is something you will be able to do if you use synthetic lubes.
Instead of spending $1500+ for an engine rebuild, buy her a better
diamond ring!
>You will be rebuilding your engine in the same amount of time as if you kept regular clean oil in your rig.
>If you run your oil dirty you will be rebuilding sooner regardless.
>
NOT! Wear particles in the oil prove otherwise.
Just one mans opinion,
>You guys can have the last word, spend your cash on whatever puts a smile on your face.
>
>Doug - Taking Dino toCostco to buy another couple cases of Chevron Supreme "dinosaur" oil
>
Somebody needs to keep them in business. You will one day soon find
that you are the last man using it. Already, ATF standards have
exceeded what dino ATF can manage. New API standards for motor oils are
getting tighter and tighter and the "big three" are starting to use
Mobil 1 at factory fill. The Corvette is a good example. Many manual
transmissions and differentials use synthetic gear lubes "filled for
life", like my 96 VW Cabrio automatic. It came rom Germany with their
synthetic ATF. There isn't a drain plug on the transmission!!
If anyone wants to see the oil analysis report on my 81 Rabbit, drop me
an email and I will send a .pdf of it to you. They also check for
silicon (bad air filter), water and glycol (coolant leaks), fuel
dilution (leaking injectors), viscosity and additive chemistry changes
indicating when it is time to change the oil.
My 50 cents worth of experience since 1985.
Tom Miller
