Date:         Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:43:08 -0700
Reply-To:     Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Non R134a refrigerants are flammable right?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I don't mean to nit-pick you, Ken, but the terms 'drop-in' and 'drop-in
replacement' are "discouraged" when referring to automotive refrigerants
because people take it to mean: A.) You can top off an R-12 charge with
another refrigerant, and/or B.) You can just recover or vent an MVAC and put
in another refrigerant without taking any other steps.

Mixing any other refrigerant with R-12 is illegal; it will ultimately cause
system failure and it can create toxicity issues.
Although there are R-134a/xxx blends out there, the end consumer should not
try to create his own, for a number of reasons including the above.

Putting Freeze-12 in any system is still a conversion, albeit the simplest
(legal) one (according to my research,etc). Freezone is nearly identical to
Freeze-12 except that it contains its own lubricant (2%); if you need to add
oil to a Freezone conversion, you should take care to make sure your
lubricant is the same as the one in the refrigerant.

These are both about 80% R-134a, but it's the combination with the other
refrigerant (HCFC-142b) that reduces the head pressures and prevents the
molecular-size related loss/leak through the hoses that you can get with
straight R-134a, as I understand it.

The bottom line is that the best conversion starts with putting your system
in as close to 'virgin' condition as possible and proceeding according to
Hoyle, replacing the 'perishable' parts, draining and replacing the oil,
flushing, evacuating, etc, and adding the correct fittings and additional
switches (if required). You can then use Freeze-12 or Freezone as you would
R-12 (with a 90% charge). Somebody recently gave a detailed description of
proper procedures relating to the Vanagon, there's that and quite a bit more
in the archives.

Freeze-12 is readily available on the web (with or without the
certification, but you should see how the law applies to you/your location).
The sites I've seen list the locations to which they won't ship. You can get
the stuff on Ebay for about $6.50/lb. if you buy the case of 12, and in
SoCal, you can find it in many FLAPS for about $6.99/12. oz can.

And no, I don't have any affiliation/interest with this stuff, just trying
to help simplify the issue.

EPA site:
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/macssubs.html

Hope that helps somebody.
Cya,
Robert


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Wilford" <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: Non R134a refrigerants are flammable right?


> As far as I know Freeze-12 is the only drop in replacement refrigerant
> that isn't based on some type of propane, or other flammable agent (of
> course there are always new refrigerants coming on the scene so my
> information may be dated).  I have used it successfully for the last
> four years with no bad effects as a drop in replacement for R-12
> systems.  This is after doing several R-134a conversions.  If you have a
> 86-91 Vanagon with the SD-709 compressor and the large condensor the
> R-134a conversion works decently well.  However if you have an older
> Vanagon with the split condensor and the SD-508 compressor an R-134a
> conversion is pretty lame.  Freeze-12 cools just as well as R-12 and
> costs about $9 a pound.  If you buy it in the 30 lb bottle you don't
> need a license (same with R-12 in case you didn't know).  Or you can get
> a license by taking the open book test at www.epatest.com and paying
> around $30.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Ken Wilford
> John 3:16
> http://www.vanagain.com
> http://www.strictlyvwauctions.com
> http://www.eurovan.org
> http://www.vwcabrio.org
> Phone: (856)-327-4936
> Fax: (856)-327-2242
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf
> Of Myers, Thomas A
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 8:43 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Non R134a refrigerants are flammable right?
>
>
> For my own clarification ..
>
> All of these replacement refrigerants [ other than R134a ]
>
> are flammable.  RedTek, DuraCool, Freeze 12 [?]
>
> That is why their certification by DOT is not the same as R134a.
>
>
>
>
>         ----------
>         From:   Vanagon Mailing List on behalf of Kim Brennan
>         Reply To:       Kim Brennan
>         Sent:   Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:40 AM
>         To:     vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>         Subject:        Re: AC concerns
>
>         Technically, no, you don't have to change the oil. Officially,
> in the
>         US, yes you do.
>
>         The USDOT, requires that vehicles using Freeze 12, Duracool, HC
> 12a and
>         other similar products must first have been converter to R134a
> fittings
>         and oil and be properly labeled.
>
>         However, as I have commented before, and Glen Smith echos, these
> other
>         freons are GREAT in Vanagons.