Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:22:38 -0700
Reply-To: Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Subject: Re: What is a Hard Start Relay Kit? Who sells them?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Since we're all happily flogging our dead horses here....
A few months ago, I had to pull my auto tranny to replace the cracked torque
converter. Shortly after putting it all back together, I began to get the
slow starter problem, which eventually resulted in the starter 'dying'
altogether. I was going to replace it, but after reading the archives and
some of the web pages on the subject, I pulled the starter, thoroughly
cleaned it on the outside and cleaned the ground strap and surfaces on the
tranny and frame. Fixed the problem right away. While I had the starter out,
I wanted to open it and the solenoid up and thoroughly clean and lube those
as well (and maybe replace the brushes- never got that far), but I couldn't
for the life of me get them to budge- I finally gave up before stripping out
the screw heads.
So, Stan; here's my question, finally:
Since you've done so many of these- how in the #%^& do ya get 'em open
without tearing 'em up? Got a special technique, tool, hold yer mouth a
certain way? Got a tip, a trick, a magic potion? And what exactly do you do
once you're inside there (what to lube, and with what, what not to touch,
etc.)?
In all seriousness, if you could put together a blow-by-blow for this
procedure, it would probably help a lot of us out with this.
Thanks,
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Wilder" <wilden1-1@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: What is a Hard Start Relay Kit? Who sells them?
> If postings are down on the Vanagon list it could be because folks won't
let
> some dead subjects pass into cyber trash.
> If you want to buy that rip off kit to fix something that just needs a
good
> cleaning then go ahead.
> The term robust sounds good since my 20 and 27 year old starter solenoids
> are still working as designed.
> Of about ten Vanagons of pre 83 vintage passing thorough my hands in 10
> years the solenoids were all working after I cleaned them and stripped off
> the solenoid kits.
> If you don't try the FREE cleaning routine first then I'm going to tell
> everybody that you're a Modern Consumer.
>
> Stan Wilder
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jack" <john.cook58@VERIZON.NET>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 11:27 PM
> Subject: Re: What is a Hard Start Relay Kit? Who sells them?
>
>
> > Ok. Point by point. But I doubt if anyone is listening. So, it's a
> waste
> > of time. But being retired now ...
> >
> > - re: "The original system was not robust.
> > The term "robust" is somewhat subjective - that's why I didn't use it
for
> > the stock starter system. Obviously, people have had problems which
> > suggests it's not terribly robust. Nevertheless, given the numbers, the
> > engineers probably made their trade-off decision between cost &
> reliability
> > correctly. I mean the engineers may want to gold plate all their
> connectors
> > but the marketing people will quickly stop that because no one would pay
> the
> > price. Real world. BTDT (in my previous life.).
> >
> > - "... not exactly aircraft quality."
> > No. How many Vanagons do you think would have sold if they had used
what
> > you called aircraft quality and raised the price accordingly. I'm sure
I
> > wouldn't have my '85 now.
> >
> > - Open crimp contacts.
> > Amazingly reliable, actually. Gas tight connections if crimped
properly.
> > Pull one apart & push it back a couple of times & you've cleaned it
unless
> > the corrosion was bad enough to lose material. Then grease it to slow
> down
> > the inevitable degradation - which will happen to any non-hermetic
> connector
> > system. That's why the most common mantra heard on this list is to
"clean
> > the grounds"!
> >
> > - 9V. On a clean system??? Color me skeptical. But then we should
know
> > that a solenoid will be expected to operate at less than full voltage -
> not
> > rocket science. Do you think the engineers were stupid? And it seems
> like
> > the system does function just fine until significant degradation sets
in.
> >
> > - "These all go for many years until corrosion, gremlins cause
trouble."
> > Yes. We all agree. Then it's maintenance time. Which means correcting
> the
> > problems which occur over time.
> >
> > In all fairness, I did say before that adding a relay WILL reduce the
> > voltage drop - that means the day you have to correct problems will be
> > delayed. But the problems will continue to develop until you have no
> > choice. I think that's what people seem to be missing. But maybe
adding
> > patches is the right way. It's just not mine.
> >
> > - "... re-terminating all the connections, pulling a new wire..."
> > That sounds kinda extreme. If mine was in that bad a shape, I'd hang my
> > head and sell it quick, because that wire is going to be the least of
your
> > problems. But I have to admit to being a native Californian & not
having
> > the road salt problem.
> >
> > - " I'm done."
> > Ditto. No serious disagreements, I think, but I wanted to clarify my
> > position. Thanks for the opportunity.
> >
> > //Jack
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Date sent: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:05:24 -0700
> > Subject: Re: What is a Hard Start Relay Kit? Who sells
> them?
> > Copies to: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > To: Jack <john.cook58@VERIZON.NET>
> > From: Mad and Ed <MadEd@gte.net>
> >
> > > Not to drag this out..but...
> > >
> > > The original system was not robust. It used a long length of barely
> > > adequate wire with open crimp terminals, not exactly aircraft quality.
> The
> > > voltage drop can and does go below 9v. These all go for many years
> until
> > > corrosion, gremlins cause trouble. Adding the relay IS a sensible
> alternate
> > > to going through re-terminating all the connections, pulling a new
wire
> and
> > > winding up with something subject to the same failure. Once it is
done
> you
> > > can take comfort in knowing at least that circuit is reliable; starter
> > > problems are probably in the starter. In the unlikely event of relay
> failure
> > > you can still go if you jump the relay terminals. I'm done.
> > >
> > > On Friday, Jun 25, 2004, at 11:04 US/Pacific, Jack wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hooray!!! Someone speaking up with some common sense.
> > > >
> > > > Bottom line: If the starter solenoid isn't working as designed,
find
> > > > what's wrong & fix it! Adding a relay is patching a problem. This
is
> your
> > > > conscience speaking ;-)
> > >
> > > Edward Lowe
> > > Seattle, WA
> > > 82 Westy Diesel upgraded to 1.9lt. Turbo
> > > 85 Golf Diesel 1.6lt NA
> > > 92 Cabrio 1.8lt gas
> > > 97 Passat Tdi
> > >
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