Date:         Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:40:25 -0700
Reply-To:     Jeffrey Schwaia <jeff@VANAGONPARTS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Jeffrey Schwaia <jeff@VANAGONPARTS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Use this for fire safetey... Now magnesium burning...
In-Reply-To:  <005b01c47a5f$9147a550$ef02fea9@none8d9z0zb52k>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I'm not sure about sheep pastures (no experience there), but wrecking yards,
repair shops and auctions (which is where the wrecking yards get the burn
jobs) I'm extremely familiar with, and I haven't seen a burn job with an
ignited engine case in years.

I even talked with my Father about it and he says that he can't remember the
last time he saw a burnt air-cooled VW where the case ignited.  And he's a
German born, VW factory trained mechanic that has owned repair shops in
SoCal since the '60s.  Pretty reliable info source.

More cheers,

Jeff
www.vanagonparts.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Stan Wilder [mailto:wilden1-1@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 1:14 PM
To: Jeffrey Schwaia; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Re: Use this for fire safetey... AND eliminate the fire
hazard...


I don't want flames so I'll qualify my statement about magnesium ignition in
the engines. Every burn job I've seen was in a wrecking yard, not in any
shop for repairs.
The one exception was in a pasture full of sheep.

Stan Wilder
www.engineceramics.com
----- Original Message -----



From: "Jeffrey Schwaia" <jeff@VANAGONPARTS.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: Use this for fire safetey... AND eliminate the fire hazard...


> Well... I'm pretty certain that I've seen more burnt VWs than most (I said
> most, no flames please), we take apart a lot of them.  Additionally, I've
> checked out many, many more at the auctions, and I can say without
> hesitation that it is rare for the magnesium to ignite on any of the
> air-cooled VWs.
>
> As a matter of fact, I've got two '82 Vanagons burn jobs on the lot right
> now.  Both of these are badly burned, but the magnesium never caught fire.
>
> On one, the fire was started when the #3 rod decided to liberate itself
from
> the case.  This exposed fresh magnesium fragments to a fire that raged for
> quite some time.  None of the fragments caught fire.
>
> The other one looks like the usual bad fuel line fire.  It was so ugly
that
> I didn't even pull the engine, however, the fan shroud and case never
> burned.
>
> So, I can honestly say that statistically (using a fairly large sample) it
> is unlikely that the magnesium on your luftgekuhlt VW will ignite.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
> www.vanagonparts.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stan Wilder [mailto:wilden1-1@sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:15 AM
> To: jeff@VANAGONPARTS.COM; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Re: Use this for fire safetey... AND eliminate the fire
> hazard...
>
>
> (By the time your magnesium parts start burning, the rest of the car will
be
> nice and toasted.)
> I've got to argue that point.
> I got an engine from a 82 Vanagon that had an engine fire, caught the
> magnesium on fire in the extended process.
> The Vanagon owner said the fire was contained by the steel engine lid and
> only started blasting up under the rubber seals on the engine deck when
the
> fire department opened the license plate door with a hook and really
> exploded the magnesium fan shroud.
> You could see that there was an explosion because bits of pot metal,
> aluminum and plastic were spread all over the underside of the engine lid,
> sides of the engine bay and sheet metal.
> The engine fire was so hot it burned out the silicone seals on the
pushrods,
> rendered the valve cover gaskets to charcoal, melted the distributor,
melted
> the throtle body, made the oil ports on the rear of the engine weep from
> heat and melted the engine yoke as the rubber engine mounts burned.
> I couldn't safely rescue hardly anything from the engine except the cam,
> lifters, rods. The pistons and cylinders were a total loss because the
> engine seized from lack of oil and with a nasty oil saturated engine bay
the
> whole thing fired..
> I have no doubt that magnesium is hard to start on fire but I see that it
> has been started in almost every early 50s to 83 that had engine fires.
That
> includes Bugs, Beatles, Busses, Vanagons and some Porsche.
>
> Stan Wilder
> www.engineceramics.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff at Vanagonparts" <jeff@VANAGONPARTS.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 12:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Use this for fire safetey... AND eliminate the fire hazard...
>
>
> > By the time your magnesium parts start burning, the rest of the car will
> be
> > nice and toasted.
> >
> > I have conducted many sceintific experiments burning magnesium based VW
> > parts (can you say bonfires) and have noticed one thing... it takes a
long
> > time for it to ignite.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jeff
> > www.vanagonparts.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM]On Behalf
> > Of Stan Wilder
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:24 AM
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: Re: Use this for fire safetey... AND eliminate the fire
> > hazard...
> >
> >
> > Steel engine covers will not stop the fire from going into the interior
of
> > your Vanagon.
> > There are still magnesium parts on VWs. Like the fan shroud, tranny
cases.
> > Stan Wilder
> > www.engineceramics.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gnarlodious" <gnarlodious@EARTHLINK.NET>
> > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 9:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: Use this for fire safetey... AND eliminate the fire
hazard...
> >
> >
> > > Entity Craig Oda spoke thus:
> > >
> > > > How as the original padding attached?
> > > I think it is propped up using jam rods like the headliner is. After
> years
> > > of heat, vibration and moisture it droops down.
> > >
> > > > Otherwise, I would have to look at some type of glue, maybe
> > > > this foam that Gnarlie used.
> > > The foam is a great material but not fireproof. Don't use it if you
want
> > > fire protection.
> > >
> > > -- Gnarlie
> > >
> > >
> > > >> Entity Craig Oda spoke thus:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I've got my transmission out of the van right now and there is a
lot
> > > >>> of this old padding that is falling out on my driveway floor, face
> and
> > > >>> into my hair.  It is above the trans, on the firewall.  I'm
thinking
> > > >>> of ripping this out and putting new stuff in there.  It already
has
> a
> > > >>> big junk of padding missing.
> > > >> I propped up the padding and injected polyurethane foam behind it.
> > Driving
> > > >> now for 2 years with no loosening, I'm real pleased with the
results.
> > Messy
> > > >> though during application, wear expendable clothes and cover your
> hair.
> > Once
> > > >> you inject don't move the padding or it collapses the foam. After
it
> > hardens
> > > >> you can remove the props.
> > > >>
> > > >> Couldn't comment on the flammability though, this is a diesel.
> > > >>
> > > >> -- Gnarlie
> > > >>