Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:42:13 -0700
Reply-To: Tobin Copley <tcopley@SFU.CA>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Tobin Copley <tcopley@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Shoulder Belts, Booster Seats, Infant Car Seats... Help!
In-Reply-To: <4123D08F.4517.D742F9B@localhost>
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Jim,
I have had the same concerns you are expressing about the poor stock
rear seat restraint system for kids. There is no way I'd be
comfortable with my kids riding in my westy with just lap belts. The
protection provided by lap belt only just doesn't meet my standards,
and the injuries resulting from lap belts in an impact can be severe
and the risk significant. Similarly, I'm not too keen on having my
kids ride in the front seats--the only place in the vehicle with
3-point shoulder belts.
I have two kids, and the westy rear-seat shoulder belt kits are only
for the right-hand seating position, since the placement of the westy
closet gets in the way of belt routing on the left side. I need
something that will work for *both* kids. (If there *is* a left side
rear seat shoulder belt kit available, I've never heard anything about
it.)
Here's what I've done:
YOUNG KIDS:
-----------
When the kids were young (car seat / small booster seat age), they rode
in full-size harnessed car seats which have there own 5-point harness
system. The seats themselves were held in place with just a lap belt,
BUT they require a tether strap to a secure anchor point to be safe.
So, I got a metal fabricator friend to weld a ridiculously beefy anchor
plate to the rear deck of the vanagon, just forward of where the rear
hatch latch plate is. The anchor plate is placed and sized such that
the engine cover can just be lifted over the anchor plate. There are
two holes drilled in the anchor plate, one of each child's tether
strap. When the seats are in place, the tensioned tether straps run at
about a 30-35 degree angle off vertical from the anchor point to the
top of the car seat(s), so they are well-place to retard forward motion
of the top of the car seat in an impact. When buckling up the car
seats, I would shove the seats as far back and down into the bench seat
as possible, placing my entire body weight into the car seat with my
knee, and adjust the lap bench length so that I could *just* manage to
push the seat belt buckles together to engage. (I still have indent
marks in the seat cushion from where the seats crushed the foam). I
used "H" clips on the lap belts to ensure that the tension on the belts
could be maintained. Those seats were *solid* in there, and that's
what I wanted.
I still have a car seat around that I could use to illustrate if
there's any interest in me taking me taking pictures to show the
set-up. It's pretty self-explanatory though, I think.
A BIT OLDER KIDS:
------------------
Now my kids are older (7.5 and almost 5). Car seats won't work for them
anymore, and lap-belt-only boosters have been the subject of a lot of
investigation regarding injuries associate with the use of these kind
of boosters. I was not convinced that using boosters would reduce the
probability of injury, and had some concerns that in some cases they
may actually be worse than just a lap belt alone (which isn't very good
to start with).
What I eventually decided on was to install a "Y" type harness system
like what Shawn describes. I actually purchased mine rather than
trying to make it and be concerned about getting the dimensions right
and worrying that I might be creating some unforeseen risk due to
design oversight. The harness I got has been tested in the US, and is
actually marketed primarily as a restrain system for handicapped
children and smaller adults (although they also make it clear it is
appropriate for any children in lap-belted vehicles). The weight range
is in the order of 40 - 168 pounds.
I welded in *another* anchor plate so that each kid has their own
anchor point (this keeps the Y harness tethers parallel to the
front-rear line of the vehicle, so there is one anchor for both rear
seating position).
My next project for rear seeat child safety is to figure out how to
install head restraints for both kids. My 7.5 year old is just a
little to tall now to ride without a head restraint. I'm thinking that
this winter I may pull the rear seat, replace the foam in it, and while
I have it apart, work out how to install removeable head restraints for
the two "main" seating positions in the rear. This might require a bit
of creativity, since the rear seat back in quite low.
I have a number of photographs I've taken showing the harness set-up
and the kids wearing them, and I've been intending to place them on a
web page for list member's information. I could p-mail them to people
with interest as well. I also have a short quicktime movie I took,
showing the kids hurling themsleves forward against the harness, then
quickly releasing themselves and exiting the vehicle.
The *very* helpful distributor I purchased the belts from is Michelle
Palumbo, and she can be reached toll-free at 866 396-6776. Let her
know I (Tobin from Vancouver BC) referred you--she'd get a kick out of
that.
I recently got back from a 1700 mile camping trip into Northern BC with
the kids. The big test is whether the kids will wear the harness, be
happy with it, are comfortable, and are generally cool with it. They
like the harness set-up a lot, and they worked great. I'm very happy
with them. When we set up to camp, I just remove the harness belts,
fold them up, and put them in a cabinet--they take up very little
space. Setting them back up in the morning in a snap. I marked each
belt with the child's name, so I don't have to do any readjustments in
the morning when we reattach them and get ready to go.
I told the kids that the belts are like what race car drivers use. Now
they refer to our diesel westy as "the world's slowest race car." Yep,
that's us!
T.
Vanagon drivers do it slow, and can go forever without stopping to
refuel ;-)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tobin Copley Vancouver, BC, Canada 49deg 23'N-123deg 19'W
'82 Westfalia 1.6L NA diesel ("Stinky")
'97 son Russell =============
'99 daughter Margaret /_| |_L| |__|:| clatter
SPEED KILLS! [. = .| clatter!
Drive a Vanagon diesel ~-()-==----()-~ ~ ~
On Aug 18, 2004, at 9:56 PM, Shawn Wright wrote:
> On 18 Aug 2004 at 21:11, Jim & Wilma Quan <thequan@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
> wrote:
>
>> Well folks,
>>
>> Baby number two is almost here and I need to start figuring out how
>> to get
>> my '91 Westy Syncro up to snuff to safely carry around my two bits of
>> precious cargo according to the laws of the land. I know I need to
>> install a
>> shoulder belt and will need to bolt down some tether anchors
>> somewhere behind
>> the rear bench seat. I know I have seen to posts regarding shoulder
>> belts, but
>> don't recall anything about tethers specific to infant car seats.
>> Anybody been
>> down this road already? I would appreciate some suggestions.
>
> I've yet to get a hold of the factory rear shoulder belt (good for
> pass side only), but did
> the following to equip our '88 Westy for two car seats:
>
> I attached the two seat anchor pieces supplied with the seats to each
> side of the rear
> Westy seat where it bolts to the engine deck area. I then bought a
> piece of chain of
> suitable size to allow the car seat clips to easily clip into it, and
> attached the chain
> between the two anchors using threaded chain links. This allows me to
> quickly unclip
> and remove the seats for folding the bed down - the chain falls
> beneath the seat out of
> the way. I would recommend loctite on the seat anchor screws - they
> have worked
> loose a few times on me. I have used this method since our oldest (now
> 7) was old
> enough for a forward facing seat. The seats seemed more secure in the
> van than when
> installed in our '85 Jetta, and much easier to tighten down securely.
>
> I can provide pics if needed- just let me know.
>
> ps: Since our oldest outgrew the seat, I had an upholstery shop sew up
> a "Y" harness
> from seat belt material, which attaches to the lap belt, then goes
> over the shoulders and
> clips onto the chain. The idea for this came from this product:
>
> http://www.ezonpro.com/products/familyVehicle/86yHarness.shtml
>
> --
> Shawn Wright
> http://Zuiko.sls.bc.ca/swright
>
