Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:54:18 -0400
Reply-To: Joy Hecht <jhecht@ALUM.MIT.EDU>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Joy Hecht <jhecht@ALUM.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bears and grey water. Done
In-Reply-To: <003001c48658$4b0cca70$49d2ea42@ttower17def>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Doug, you're venturing far more off topic than bears and coffee here! I
mean, you're getting into the basic fundamentals of political theory, asking
who really decides what's right and by what authority.
I won't go into a lengthy reply - but just remind you of the line about how
democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others.
I work on public policy issues, as do many of my friends. It's really easy
to see what the government does wrong. It's also really easy to see how
life would be much harder for many people if we didn't have government (no
schools, no public access to medical care at all, no protected national
forests or parks in which to ward off the bears, nothing to prevent ALL of
the land from being converted to suburban strip malls, etc.) It's MUCH
harder to figure out how to do it better without creating ridiculous
bureaucracy but also without letting a few powerful rich people run
roughshod over the rights of everyone else. In my experience most federal
employees are smart, committed, and trying really hard to do what's best for
society. But often no one knows how to do that.
Joy
****************************************************************
Joy Hecht
and Matilda, 1989 Burgundy Vanagon
For musings about life and the vanadventures:
http://users.rcn.com/jhecht/gypsy
****************************************************************
:::-----Original Message-----
:::From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf
:::Of Doug in Calif
:::Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:52 PM
:::To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
:::Subject: Re: Bears and grey water. Done
:::
:::Mark,
:::There seems continually be less and less for all of us to share and more
:::of
:::us to share it with as more folks show up to this great nation and onto
:::this
:::great planet.
:::If there are still some of those unpopulated frontiers left where you can
:::simply uncap your drain on your westy sink and spill it on the desert
:::floor
:::in true
:::frontiersman fashion, well, enjoy those moments vanagonuts, those
:::freedoms
:::may not always be around.
:::
:::Hate hurts the hater so I dont do it. I love a good flame and I feel when
:::it
:::gets really heated a bit is when the truth and beneficial stuff really
:::comes
:::out.
:::We are all a bunch of folks who dig vanagons for one reason or another,
:::camping, engineering, hauling kids, whatever. Anybody who can appreciate
:::a
:::vanagon has moved forward in my book by several hundred steps.
:::
:::I realize I may not be the most eloquent speaker / writer of the group,
:::(lol, hey, school me!) but most of the time I feel I am writing for some
:::of
:::those who believe exactly as I do but don't say a word. (I know you guys
:::are
:::out there!) I try to avoid going to the bottom of the argument food chain
:::and making it personal or strutting around like a barn yard rooster with
:::my
:::chest out telling everybody how much I can bench press etc.
:::
:::I do like the exchange and I have a pretty good stomach for it, sorry to
:::some of you who do not.
:::
:::In all of this talk recently I cannot help but to think about what this
:::country was like 200 years ago and how WE ALL have pushed our way onto,
:::into, in, on, and around, this nation and taken it from who and what was
:::here, setting up OUR RULES as we go. "Might" (and population) made
:::"right"
:::it would seem?
:::
:::How can we justify that?
:::I know we need laws and rules but WHO really decides what is right or
:::wrong?
:::and by what authority?
:::
:::
:::Doug
:::
:::
:::
:::
:::----- Original Message -----
:::From: "Mark Edwards" <bhs73@SPYMAC.COM>
:::To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
:::Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:47 PM
:::Subject: Bears and grey water. Done
:::
:::
:::> I thank all those who weighed in on the grey water thing. Glad to know
:::I
:::> am not doing anything illegal by using a bucket in my camping endeavors
:::> :-)
:::>
:::> I love to talk about the bears and the camping, but I also think enough
:::is
:::> enough.
:::>
:::> As usual, Westys present a unique perspective, as they are really tents
:::> when sitting with the top up, so rules of tent camping have to apply.
:::In
:::> most bear places, put down the top and store your food inside and all
:::will
:::> be well. There are campgrounds in Glacier, Yellowstone, and GTNP where
:::I
:::> assume a Westy would not be allowed to camp, if the top is popped up,
:::> although I have never taken the time to ask, or look around. Probably
:::be a
:::> nightmare trying to explain it all to one of those AARP-customer
:::service
:::> folks who run the campgrounds :-)
:::>
:::> FWIW, yes, CA seems to be out of control, and needs to take some
:::serious
:::> action to control the bears. Just another reason I have no plans to
:::ever
:::> go there again. Yellowstone and Teton used to have a bear problem bit
:::like
:::> that as well, although there is more space there to work with bears and
:::> other animals, so good luck to them. Took a major commitment and mucho
:::> bucks and effort to get it under control tho. Don't know if Yosemite-
:::ites
:::> have the stomach for such a thing. I have never had a hankering to see
:::> Yosemite either. Its been a nightmare ever since I can remember. :-)
:::>
:::> I am sorry there is so much anger and hatred between people who have
:::such
:::> differing agendas. Makes it impossible to get anything done. I
:::understand
:::> Doug's position, and in my heart, I agree with much of it, but there
:::has
:::> to be a better way to express it.
:::>
:::> A wise man once said "government is not the solution, government is the
:::> problem" and in nearly every instance I can think of, government
:::screwed
:::> up just about everything they get involved in. Can't think of a way to
:::> spin that thought into a vanagon comment tho, so I guess its time to
:::move
:::> along, as we won't solve that problem here, (or anywhere else for that
:::> matter <g>)
:::>
:::> Mark
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