Date:         Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:34:03 -0700
Reply-To:     Jim Thompson <jim@KARMANNGHIA.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Jim Thompson <jim@KARMANNGHIA.COM>
Subject:      Re: Stuck Solenoid????
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

More often than not, the ignition switch is not the culprit, but the wiring
itself, which while aging will build resistance, prevent a full current
flow.  A bigger problem with 6 Volt electrics, not so much with 12 Volt
electrics, but the problem persists.  Starter activation wire failures have
always been a constant problem with this flaw with Volkswagens since their
inception in the mid 40s when postwar production commenced.  It took Bosch
45 years to admit that there can be a problem, noted it in their Rotating
Products Catalog in the mid 90s and introduced the WR-1 Starter Relay Kit to
help correct it, while the aftermarket on their own zeroed in on the problem
decades before with this solution.  I have found that even when replacing
the ignition switch, the problem persists.  My exes: 68 Bug, ex 67 Bus
(original owner - me), two 73 Karmann Ghias, 69 Camper, 73 Panel Van, 59
Euro Single Cab Pickup, 61 Panel Van, 62 Bug (original owner - my father),
81 Vanagon, even a 76 Rabbit all eventually were equipped with whatever
variation was being produced to "help" the starting circuit.  Vanagons are
the easiest to test an Ignition Switch - remove the Steering Column Bottom
Cover, unplug the harness from the Switch, plug it into a new switch (I
always carry a spare) and use a screwdriver to carefully turn on the
ignition and starter circuits.  If it solves the problem, replace it.  If
not, reconnect yer old switch and do further troubleshooting.

Replacing the switch can help IF it is the cause of the problem.  If the
switch is fine, consider the following:

1.  If the woven ground strap between the front nosecone of the transmission
is wasting away from rust, corrosion, etc., that can definitely be a factor
in poor starter performance, as the transmission/engine assembly is not
properly grounding.  I solved dozens of customer's starting problems over
twenty years with this simple inspection.  Sure, didn't make a sale on a
rebuilt starter that wouldn't have solved their problem in the first place.
Replacing that strap most every time sent my customer away with a smile on
their face and a lot of times they returned to spend money on something they
really did need.  Check that strap from time to time to ensure that it is in
good shape.

2.  If the Switch is new or otherwise OK, the Starter Solenoid is OK, the
Tranny Ground Strap is OK, the Battery Cables are OK and the Battery is OK,
then consider the starter relay add-on, the WR-1.

I have a link on my website that addresses most starter problems:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/hardstart.pdf

Jack & Tony are both right.  But my experience has usually caused me to
install a Hard Start Relay on all VWs I've own, past or present.  An ounce
of prevention is worth.......... :-)

Jim Thompson
84 Westfalia 2.1 "Ole Putt"
oldvolkshome@earthlink.net
jim@karmannghia.com
http://www.oldvolkshome.com
***********************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack" <john.cook58@VERIZON.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: Stuck Solenoid????


> Tony,
>
> You seem to have accurately diagnosed an ignition switch problem, yet I
see
> no indication you replaced it ($10?).  You did add a patch (starter relay)
> to help the starter solenoid current starvation problem cause by the
failing
> switch.  Ok.  You're extending the time until total failure.
>
> But why are you ignoring a failing ignition switch?   Just curious.
>
> If it was "worn" enough to not pass enough current to drive the solenoid
> (assuming a good solenoid, of course), that probably means there was heat
> being generated in the switch with an increasing probability of
catastrophic
> failure.  That kind of degradation doesn't reverse itself.  Why not
replace
> it?  It has other electrical contact functions too, which may be near
> failure.
>
> I'm wrtiing this because there seems to be a school of thought here that
the
> starter relay is a fix for a problem.  It's not!  It's a patch.  It
extends
> the time of failure.  I have no issue with those who believe the relay kit
> is an improvement.  Wonderful.  But fix the basic problem first!  Then add
> the kit.
>
> //jack
>
>
> Date sent:              Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:12:31 -0700
> Send reply to:          Anthony Zygmunt <tzygmunt@YAHOO.COM>
> From:                   Anthony Zygmunt <tzygmunt@YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:                Re: Stuck Solenoid????
> To:                     vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>
> > Steve,
> >
> > I'm not sure on how your solenoid is wired, but on my
> > 81 it is direct from the ignition switch.  As the
> > switch wears, a voltage drop occurs, and full voltage
> > does not reach the solenoid and it will not pull in.
> > I started having problems with my van turning over.  I
> > bought a relay kit from bus-boys.com, and I have not
> > had any problems since.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> > --- Steve Shane <shane_steve@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >
> > > Greetings all, today my van would not turn over even
> > > though it has PLENTY of
> > > power. My mechanic is suggesting a stuck Solenoid
> > > and swapping out a starter
> > > will fix it, can I get your thoughts?
> > >
> > > Symptoms: often there is a delay from turning the
> > > ignition switch to when
> > > the engine begins to turn over there is always
> > > plenty of power, but one or
> > > two seconds goes by before the engine begins to
> > > turn.
> > >
> > > Lately it has gotten worse to the point of the van
> > > not starting at all.
> > >
> > > Battery is new, alternator is new, the van is an 87
> > > Westy.
> > > Thanks all!!!
> > > - Steve
> > >
> > >
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