Date:         Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:10:19 -0400
Reply-To:     The Bus Depot <vanagon@BUSDEPOT.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         The Bus Depot <vanagon@BUSDEPOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Exhaust Pipe Question
In-Reply-To:  <27818710.1095439506168.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>> << These Danish made pipes are direct
>> copies of the originals and have the same fit and quality as
>> what the dealer sells, but for much less money.  >>

> Stop propagating this hogwash because it is simply not true.
> I'm on my 4th van...  I've used both factory and aftermarket
> and the aftermarket pipes can't even smell what VW sells.
> Sure the VW pipes cost more.  But then, you only get what
> you pay for.


Then we disagree, although I would not be so rude as to call your
opinion "hogwash" even if I do not share it.  I am genuinely sorry to
see that your time away from the list has not tempered your sharp
tongue, George.  Differences of opinion can be voiced in civil and
respectful tones, and generally have been in your absence.

In my experience (with far more than four vans, incidentally), the
Dansk/Jopex pipes generally hold up as well as the OE ones do. No they
are not identical, but neither have I seen a significant difference in
terms of overall reliability. Or, to put it differently, they suck
equally. The North American spec Vanagon exhaust system is convoluted at
best, with lots of piping over a short distance. This is the price we
pay for the required use of a CAT converter and fuel injection; the
European market got a far simpler setup (more like the old style Beetle
muffler), because no CAT was required. Because of this design, they are
prone to stress cracking over time. Also because of this design, they
can be a bitch to install, which is why many generic muffler shops run
screaming from the building when they see a Vanagon pull up. If any of
the pipes, mounts, etc. bend or tweak over time, then when you remove
the old exhaust system the whole thing tends to "spring" to the position
that it wants to go to. This can make it a challenge to line up the
replacement parts (whether OE or aftermarket), especially if you are
mixing new with old. Anyone who has done Vanagon exhaust has experienced
the joy of this. A good pry bar, an acetylene torch, lots of patience, a
bit of cursing, and a cold beer waiting in the fridge can often be
prerequisites for doing Vanagon exhaust no matter whose pipes you use.

But as for fit between the dealer and aftermarket pipes and muffler, I
have compared them side by side, and the bends and dimensions from
flange to flange are the same. If you are cursing at your Dansk pipes
trying to line them up, I can assure you that you would be cursing even
more if you'd bought dealer pipes, because they'd be just as hard to
fit, but to add insult to injury you'd have paid 2-3 times the price.
And as for reliability, I haven't seen any dramatic difference. I'm not
talking about comparing the neatness of the welds, I'm talking about the
"real-world" bottom line - how long they tend to last on the van. Both
versions are prone to stress cracks (usually not at the welds). Both
rust. Either is likely to last you several years but certainly not
forever. Sometimes I've seen an OE pipe fail prematurely, other times a
Dansk pipe. Most people on this list are in fact using the Dansk setup,
so it's become the defacto norm, because of the comparatively high price
of the dealer pipes.

Of course it is your hard earned money, and your van, so anyone who
feels that dealer setup is superior should by all means buy it. But
bring a large wad of cash. For example, I sell the Dansk 1.9L setup for
$299 complete (excluding CAT).  The dealer sells theirs for $874.  Even
if you get a 10% discount off of the dealer price (which is about all
most dealers offer, if they discount at all), you will pay $786 - more
than 2-1/2 times the price.

I discount all dealer parts, and will be happy to order the factory
exhaust from VW for anyone who would like it, at lower prices than your
local dealer is likely to offer. Heck, why should I complain?  I'd be
rich if everyone bought $800-$1000 exhaust systems from me instead of
$300-$500 ones!  But I can't honestly say that I'd spend the extra money
if it were my own van. And in fact I haven't; my Vanagon has a Dansk
system on it.

- Ron Salmon
  The Bus Depot, Inc.
  www.busdepot.com
  (215)  234-VWVW

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