Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:04:25 -0700
Reply-To: Doug in Calif <vanagon@ASTOUND.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Doug in Calif <vanagon@ASTOUND.NET>
Subject: Re: Installing a pop-top on a non-pop top EASY ??? IN ONE
WEEDEND ??
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Having done this job to my 87 syncro GL (non-westy) as part of my westy
conversion, I can tell everyone, that to do it RIGHT its a BIG job indeed.
You better be handy with metal and have a good assortment of tools, lots of
know-how and lots of time, and I mean weeks.
I have to offer a big THANK YOU to Stuart Black for his work on posting
detailed pics of his conversion.
It helped me immensely to understand the metal designs of both tops and what
needed to be done to do the transplant.
There is also a French website that shows a professional body shop that did
the job as a professional weld in, probably as close to a factory job as one
could do.
This site was also very helpful to me to see how they dealt with the various
issues.
To do the pop top conversion and NOT do the upper bunk as the factory
featured it, to me, would be taking away the main reason I wanted a pop top
on my syncro. (storage while camped and a place to throw some nieces or
nephews or a buddy for an overnighter and place for me to sleep on warm
summer campouts)
I may decide to sell it to someday too, and wanted to show the conversion
was done correctly with all the attributes of the full pop top.
There are 3 main areas that become issues on this conversion.
The rear pop top support hinges on the westy bolt to a "flat" area molded
into the roof skin. The non-westy van has a curved roofline where the hinges
are going to go.
There is also a structural support under the roof skin in this area on the
westy, to transfer the load on the hinges down to the structurally sound
roof frame rails.
(very strong 1/8 th inch thick steel support rail that runs around the
perimeter of the vanagon at the level of the rain gutter)
The HACKED method of just screwing down the rear support hinges through the
curved roof metal to whatever you can grab or an inserted plate under the
skin is SLAMMIN IMHO.
There is a fair amount of weight resting on the rear hinges if all you have
to support that weight under the rear hinge is the roof skin itself you are
asking for trouble. Any movement of the top, raising and lowering, wind /
snow loads, racks, canoes, etc will eventually flex the thin sheet metal of
the roof skin and fatigue the metal there. You will also still have the
issue of trying to bolt down the hinge which has a flat bottom to a curved
roofline. This will kick your hinges out at an angle rather attaching
vertically.
Another issue is the "bed rail" this is a very thin piece of metal that
forms a "ledge" that supports the rear plywood bed and front fold out
section for the upper bunk. This "ledge" is only on the westy. It is very
securely welded in almost a hundred places to the main roof support rail.
You either need to custom fab your own bed rail or remove the rail
carefully from the donor van and attach to the other van. (big job).
The third and final main issue is the center support across the middle of
the van. This support is arched in the non-westy and totally flat and very
reinforced for additional strength in the westy. You cannot get the upper
bunk to lie flat on the arched support because the arc is almost 2-3 inches
higher in the middle over a flat run across the van. In order to use the
middle westy support you need to graft in the ends where both the westy and
non-westy cross braces make contact with the main roof support rails . This
is where it gets tricky, because you cannot take the entire vanagon apart
and rebuild it from scratch. (well I thought about that too) You need to
design a way to tie in to the converted vans roof support rails and do it in
such a way that you keep as much of the original design of the westy for the
cross brace.
Interesting thing about the westy cross support brace, it is an extremely
well designed brace as it free spans over 4 feet and will support hundreds
of pounds. Ti does a good job of transferring the load side supports. Both
the rear plywood section as well as the front fold out section for the upper
bunk depend mainly on this center support beam. There is a "trim" piece that
is also an integral part of the support beam it is that piece that goes on
under the beam it is held by a lip on the front edge which engages to the
edge of the beam and four screws on the back which screw into "T" nuts in
the rear plywood. It has a rubber bumper strip to protect your head. This
"trim" substantially reinforces the center support beam when it is secured
in with the plywood. It is a big mistake to leave it out and put large loads
up on the bunk.
This is a project that can certainly be done. You will be asking yourself
many times during the completion "what was I thinking?" and saying things
like "I am such an idiot!, why did I take on a project like this?"
There are so many vanagons on the road that would benefit greatly and
practical value increased to go camping in them, by the addition of the pop
top and upper bunk. I know that installing the pop top to my syncro totally
changed the way I felt about the van, it literally became a "camper" instead
of a GL 7 pass plain jane vanagon. I cannot think of a single other project
I have done to the van that changed the way I felt about and its usefulness
as much.
There seems to be many pop tops in wrecking yards that are still in decent
shape. I paid a hundred bucks for the whole roof section from a westy from
my local junk yard. I got the complete upper bunk and all the trim complete
with the parcel tray and most of the curtains.
If you have a local body shop friend who could help you out with the heavy
duty work and you could do all the minor stuff you may be able to save some
money and do most of it yourself.
I have considered putting a book together on how to do this and selling it
on e/bay like the guy with the dual battery set up is doing today. My
feeling is that most folks out there once they realize how much work it
takes and tools and know-how would pass on the project.
I believe if you could get a professional body shop to do this conversion
for you it would be in the range of $3000 to $4000
Save the vanagons
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Walters" <sam.cooks@VERIZON.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Installing a pop-top on a non-pop top EASY ??? IN ONE WEEDEND
??
> Don't rush into this too quickly based on Chris' post. There is no
> doubt that what Karl and Chris did is much simpler and therefore, much
> quicker. But understand what they did and didn't do, compared to Stuart
> Black. Some people want a roof, some want a Westy upper bunk and the
> roof, while still other's want a Westy with its full interior.
>
> Carefully read the web page on the "easy method" done by Karl Bloss and
> Chris and the linked page where the van is offered for sale - it has no
> bed, just a pop top. One of the main reasons people do it the harder
> way is to get the bed. Others who have the bed say they rarely use it
> except as a storage space when camped and using the Westy interior.
>
> The foundation for the Westy upper bed is an integral part of the Westy
> top - which is not the same as the top of a regular vanagon with a hole
> cut into it. The Westy top is a flat platform for the bed. Part of
> that is a rather beefy cross bar that would provide some significant
> structural support to the van's roof. The regular van's roof line is
> curved. I haven't ever seen pictures of a bed installed into a van
> converted in the manner Karl and Chris did the job although this poptop
> addition idea gets discussed from time to time and Chris always asserts
> that it is easy, etc. They didn't do this part at all, much less in a
> weekend.
>
> So, if someone has done the whole job based on the Bloss / Turner
> procedure, adding a bed to the curved roof, please show us some pictures.
>
> While I will agree that having the pop top alone is a great addition for
> camping and traveling, I primarily use the van's poptop feature for
> camping with my son when we attend astronomy gatherings. He sleeps
> upstairs and I sleep downstairs. If a couple with no children, or a
> couple who will put the children in a tent, were to add the poptop this
> way, then the absence of the bed wouldn't be a big deal.
>
> However, I do have some concern for the structural integrity of a
> regular roof which has had such a large hole cut into it and no bracing
> added.
>
> I am not saying not to do this, just be sure about what you want. I
> have considered it for several years and read all I see about it. Just
> understand the whole job and what it will take in time before you jump in.
>
> --
> Sam Walters
> Baltimore, MD
>
> 89 Syncro GL
> 85 Westy Weekender
>
>
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