Date:         Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:28:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Doug in Calif <vanagon@ASTOUND.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Doug in Calif <vanagon@ASTOUND.NET>
Subject:      Fw: Re: Installing a pop-top on a non-pop top EASY  ???   Pic of
              my syncro with top installed
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Here's a pic of the completed pop top installed on my 87 syncro GL was 7
passenger van.

>
> http://users.ca.astound.net/dougfayne/Dougs%2087%20syncro2.JPG
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Doug in Calif" <vanagon@astound.net>
> > To: "Sam Walters" <sam.cooks@VERIZON.NET>; <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 1:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: Re: Installing a pop-top on a non-pop top EASY ??? IN ONE
> > WEEDEND ??
> >
> >
> > > Having done this job to my 87 syncro GL (non-westy) as part of my
westy
> > > conversion, I can tell everyone, that to do it RIGHT its a BIG job
> indeed.
> > > You better be handy with metal and have a good assortment of tools,
lots
> > of
> > > know-how and lots of time, and I mean weeks.
> > >
> > > I have to offer a big THANK YOU to Stuart Black for his work on
posting
> > > detailed pics of his conversion.
> > > It helped me immensely to understand the metal designs of both tops
and
> > what
> > > needed to be done to do the transplant.
> > > There is also a French website that shows a professional body shop
that
> > did
> > > the job as a professional weld in, probably as close to a factory job
as
> > one
> > > could do.
> > > This site was also very helpful to me to see how they dealt with the
> > various
> > > issues.
> > >
> > > To do the pop top conversion and NOT do the upper bunk as the factory
> > > featured it, to me, would be taking away the main reason I wanted a
pop
> > top
> > > on my syncro. (storage while camped and a place to throw some nieces
or
> > > nephews or a buddy for an overnighter and place for me to sleep on
warm
> > > summer campouts)
> > >  I may decide to sell it to someday too, and wanted to show the
> conversion
> > > was done correctly with all the attributes of the full pop top.
> > >
> > > There are 3 main areas that become issues on this conversion.
> > >
> > > The rear pop top support hinges on the westy bolt to a "flat" area
> molded
> > > into the roof skin. The non-westy van has a curved roofline where the
> > hinges
> > > are going to go.
> > > There is also a structural support under the roof skin in this area on
> the
> > > westy, to transfer the load on the hinges down to the structurally
sound
> > > roof frame rails.
> > > (very strong 1/8 th inch thick steel support rail that runs around the
> > > perimeter of the vanagon at the level of the rain gutter)
> > > The HACKED method of just screwing down the rear support hinges
through
> > the
> > > curved roof metal to whatever you can grab or an inserted plate under
> the
> > > skin is SLAMMIN IMHO.
> > > There is a fair amount of weight resting on the rear hinges if all you
> > have
> > > to support that weight under the rear hinge is the roof skin itself
you
> > are
> > > asking for trouble. Any movement of the top, raising and lowering,
wind
> /
> > > snow loads, racks, canoes, etc will eventually flex the thin sheet
metal
> > of
> > > the roof skin and fatigue the metal there. You will also still have
the
> > > issue of trying to bolt down the hinge which has a flat bottom to a
> curved
> > > roofline. This will kick your hinges out at an angle rather attaching
> > > vertically.
> > >
> > > Another issue is the "bed rail" this is a very thin piece of metal
that
> > > forms a "ledge"  that supports the rear plywood bed and front fold out
> > > section for the upper bunk. This "ledge" is only on the westy. It is
> very
> > > securely welded in almost a hundred places to the main roof support
> rail.
> > > You either need to custom fab your own bed rail  or remove the rail
> > > carefully from the donor van and attach to the other van. (big job).
> > >
> > > The third and final main issue is the center support across the middle
> of
> > > the van. This support is arched in the non-westy and totally flat and
> very
> > > reinforced for additional strength in the westy. You cannot get the
> upper
> > > bunk to lie flat on the arched support because the arc is almost 2-3
> > inches
> > > higher in the middle over a flat run across the van.  In order to use
> the
> > > middle westy support you need to graft in the ends where both the
westy
> > and
> > > non-westy cross braces make contact with the main roof support rails .
> > This
> > > is where it gets tricky, because you cannot take the entire vanagon
> apart
> > > and rebuild it from scratch. (well I thought about that too) You need
to
> > > design a way to tie in to the converted vans roof support rails and do
> it
> > in
> > > such a way that you keep as much of the original design of the westy
for
> > the
> > > cross brace.
> > >
> > > Interesting thing about  the westy cross support brace, it is an
> extremely
> > > well designed brace as it free spans over 4 feet and will support
> hundreds
> > > of pounds. Ti does a good job of transferring the load side supports.
> Both
> > > the rear plywood section as well as the front fold out section for the
> > upper
> > > bunk depend mainly on this center support beam. There is a "trim"
piece
> > that
> > > is also an integral part of the support beam it is that piece that
goes
> on
> > > under the beam it is held by a lip on the front edge which engages to
> the
> > > edge of the beam and four screws on the back which screw into "T" nuts
> in
> > > the rear plywood. It has a rubber bumper strip to protect your head.
> This
> > > "trim" substantially reinforces the center support beam when it is
> secured
> > > in with the plywood. It is a big mistake to leave it out and put large
> > loads
> > > up on the bunk.
> > >
> > > This is a project that can certainly be done. You will be asking
> yourself
> > > many times during the completion "what was I thinking?" and saying
> things
> > > like "I am such an idiot!, why did I take on a project like this?"
> > >
> > >  There are so many vanagons on the road that would benefit greatly and
> > > practical value increased to go camping in them, by the addition of
the
> > pop
> > > top and upper bunk. I know that installing the pop top to my syncro
> > totally
> > > changed the way I felt about the van, it literally became a "camper"
> > instead
> > > of a GL 7 pass plain jane vanagon. I cannot think of a single other
> > project
> > > I have done to the van that changed the way I felt about and its
> > usefulness
> > > as much.
> > >
> > > There seems to be many pop tops in wrecking yards that are still in
> decent
> > > shape. I paid a hundred bucks for the whole roof section from a westy
> from
> > > my local junk yard. I got the complete upper bunk and all the trim
> > complete
> > > with the parcel tray and most of the curtains.
> > >
> > > If you have a local body shop friend who could help you out with the
> heavy
> > > duty work and you could do all the minor stuff you may be able to save
> > some
> > > money and do most of it yourself.
> > >
> > > I have considered putting a book together on how to do this and
selling
> it
> > > on e/bay like the guy with the dual battery set up is doing today. My
> > > feeling is that most folks out there once they realize how much work
it
> > > takes and tools and know-how would pass on the project.
> > >
> > > I believe if you could get a professional body shop to do this
> conversion
> > > for you it would be in the range of $3000 to  $4000
> > >
> > > Save the vanagons
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >