Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:12:27 -0400
Reply-To:     The Bus Depot <vanagon@BUSDEPOT.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         The Bus Depot <vanagon@BUSDEPOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: AMC Heads (My views)
In-Reply-To:  <002201c4b2c8$e5eeeae0$6500a8c0@DELL>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

> Actually this all boils down to a valve issue.  What valves 
> are the folks using?  Here is your statement:
> 
> "My AMC 2.1L heads do NOT have these valve stems because I do 
> NOT get them from AMC's U.S. importer.  Mine are fully 
> assembled in Europe by AMC themselves."
> 
> The valves are what is supposedly causing the problem (the 
> stem is part of the valve in case you didn't know).
> So what valves are any of these folks using?  Who knows?  I 
> could be wrong but unless you know the brand of valves that 
> Marnel is using here in the US and you know the brand of 
> valves that AMC is using in Spain then you are just guessing 
> that they are different, better, etc.  I don't know these 
> things.  All I know is that in my experience as installer and 
> a parts sales person I have had no problem with the readily 
> available US version valves.


The probems have been independently reported by multiple sources, including
AVP, Boston Bob, Go Westy, and others. These guys do not clandestantly get
together and conspire to sell "pixie dust" to unsuspecting Vanagon owners.
It is, in my opinion, likely to be more than a coincidence that they have
all independently experienced similar problems. When I hear multiple reports
from independent sources of the same problem, I tend to stand up and take
notice. 

As for more details on the issue itself, here is what I know. Leonard, the
owner and "chief guru" of AVP, spoke to me at great length about this issue.
He knows more about rebuilding Vanagon engines than I ever will (and, I'd be
willing to guess, more than anyone else on this list as well, except for
Boston Bob). Frankly some of it went over my head, as I'm a parts specialist
and not an engine rebuilder, but here is the gist of it as I understand it.
About three years ago, Leonard started noticing a sharp increase in heads
coming in as cores that had valve stem failure.  The keeper grooves at the
top of the valve stems had been pounded out by the keepers, causing the
valve to hit the piston. We're talking major damage here. It appeared to
them that the valves were basically too soft, and had failed prematurely. So
Leonard started saving the bad valves and discovered that all of the valves
that failed were the same, with no markings that identified them as brands
that he had found to be reliable. By comparison, other AMC heads that did
not have these valves were not coming in with this problem.  Concerned about
a major quality issue, Leonard show the big box of valves he'd saved to the
U.S. importer of the AMC heads. The importer admitted that there had been
other complaints, and said that his company had assembled those heads in the
U.S. using valves that were NOT supplied by AMC. He assured Leonard that the
problem would be resolved.  However, even after that time Leonard continued
to see heads with this sort of failure. He has seen about 40 of them so far.

Is the problem now resolved? Is newer production better, and if so, are all
of the potentially risky ones out of the pipeline? Leonard's not sure. But
he does know that even now, some of the AMC assembled heads are coming
through with valves that he does not recognize. On his last shipment of four
heads., just this month, two of them had Italian made Ivam valves that he
trusted and two had "no name" valves that he wasn't familiar with. Would
thse two have failed? Perhaps not, maybe even probably not, but Leonard
isn't taking the chance - he replaced them before using the heads. He felt
that he would not feel comfortable standing behind his engines otherwise. On
an unrelated issue, AVP also mentioned that they had been told of a valve
guide problem with a few of the same AMC heads another rebuilder - but added
that they have not seen this problem themselves first hand so they cannot
confirm it.  Now you know as much as I do. 

My point remains, why chance it?  When I learned of this problem, quite some
time ago, I went out of my way to source heads that were not from this
batch. I started buying heads that are fully assembled by AMC in Spain using
all AMC-sourced components, not in the U.S.  Does this make them better?
Well, all of the heads that had  reported problems were apparantly the U.S.
assembled ones, so I'd say the odds are much better than with a head from a
source that had a known problem. Plus, in the process of doing this, I was
actually able to reduce the price. This is a win-win situation with no
downside. Whether you believe that there is a real problem, or a massive
conspiracy on the part of all of the engine rebuilders here in the U.S. to
sell you "fairy dust," you will save money and reduce risk.

As for Ken Wilford's comment that he can provde additional support in the
way of installation advice that some vendors (myself included) do not, I
agree completely. I am not a professional mechanic, nor do I play one on TV.
My knowledge is sharply focused on the sourcing and quality of the part, not
how to install it. The Bus Depot's slogan is "Better Parts, Better Prices,"
and that pretty much sums it up. I want to sell you the best part I can for
the best possible price. I'll spend days or weeks researching or tracking
down a single part. I'll look into the part's track record and the history
of the supplier. I'll "pick the brains" of people like Leonard of AVP, Mark
Reynolds of Just Kampers, Jim Thompson, and others if they know something I
don't. (And some of them will pick my brain too. This sort of communication
is good for all.)  Learning of AVP's experience with the Vanagon heads, and
going out of my way to find an alternative product as a result, is a perfect
example of this preventative approach in action. Not that it always keeps a
bad part from getting through, but it sure helps. Indeed there are many
parts that I won't sell, even though other vendors do, because I have heard
concerns about their quality and prefer to play it safe.  

So is this strictly focused approach more important than, say, providing
installation advice?  Well, there are certainly advantages to that too. No
one retailer can be all things to all people. As a consumer, you choose the
one that's best for you.

- Ron Salmon
  The Bus Depot, Inc.
  www.busdepot.com
  (215)  234-VWVW

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