Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:58:36 -0800
Reply-To: Tim in Seattle <syncrowesty@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Tim in Seattle <syncrowesty@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: oh (deleted), here we go again
In-Reply-To: <41A3B333.4090506@charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:01:23 -0600, John Rodgers <inua@charter.net> wrote:
> Tim. I'm not the moderator, don't want to be, but if the thread
> continues with the language, there are going to be some people no longer
> on the List.
I think we are coming at it from a different angle, but that's my
point, too. Censorship has a way of driving good people away. I find
it interesting that this list has 981 members and a sublist group like
the subaruvanagon group has over 1600.
>Tom C. has the authority by way of being our VOLUNTEER
> moderator, and he has done an excellent job. H As such, he has the right
> to be jury, judge, and executioner. I have seen it happen before.
> Experience is the best guide. If you don't beleive me, just keep it up.
> I'm not trying to be a buttinsky here, it's just I have been around here
> a long time and know the drill.
I know the drill, too. I remember when Tom got Gerry. And I remember
David before that, and Ron before that. I'm not sure if this is a
peeing contest (can I say peeing?), but it looks like you win --
December of 97 vs. my March of 98.
So, I will agree with you that experience IS the best guide. That's
why I objected to this censorship. To see some at that "experience"
you just need to hit the archives. Naughty words have come up time and
again (over 600 for sh*t alone -- quite a steamy pile of just one
naughty word) and we've managed to live with it -- just like you do if
you hear a neighbor bellow an expletive when they hit their finger
with a hammer.
If you rely on that archive experience as a blueprint on how to live
as "good" list member, then is would seem to me the occasional naughty
word has been grandfathered in. I'm not saying we all need to start
swearing like sailors. Generally, good communication doesn't need
quasi-shocking language to make it work. However if the occasional
four letter word slips in and helps tell the story, then by gosh, I
think we'll survive. Frankly, I'm guessing many folks here are more
upset by the abuse of the English language and the punctuation they
regularly endure at the hands of some noted listees.
As for there not being rights - I agree there are no "rights" in the
constitutional sense on this list. I do, however, feel you missed
something that goes with privileges: responsibility. I feel this is a
living community, and as a member of this community I'm obligated to
speak out when something threatens this community. If I just ignore it
because I might get in trouble on the list, then I'm not living up to
my responsibilities and and the list is a sad community, indeed.
Finally, to address the comment from Jeff that I politely pmail Tom
my issues and keep them off list ... that just wouldn't work. If this
is a community then we all need to take part in the "dirty laundry."
If we only send comments directly to Tom, then we really have no way
of knowing what is actually acceptable to the list community -- we
only know what is acceptable to Tom.
The number of "thanks" pmails I've received today attest to this. For
some reason, a lot of people don't want to publicly state their
opinions about list rules. Again, that is a sad state for a community
to be in. I think we can agree that discussing how the list should be
run is different than talking about guns, politics or any of the other
hot button issues we've had over the years. If we can't talk about the
best way to run this community without the fear of getting banned,
then we've got some bigger problems than broken vanagons.
Thanks for the chance to discuss.
Tim
--
Tim King
Seattle WA
87 Syncro Westy/Suby 2.5
