Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 12:55:48 -0600
Reply-To: Al and Sue Brase <albeeee@MCHSI.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Al and Sue Brase <albeeee@MCHSI.COM>
Subject: Re: Just interesting observation & More Questions
In-Reply-To: <200412180736.iBI7aMtL084536@ceres.aros.net>
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John:
I'd have to say I agree with some of your points and disagree with others.
I agree that a check valve in the filter should make no difference at
all. It may be a bigger factor in the WBX.
A good quality filter has LOTS more media in it. I often cut the filters
apart to look for swarf. German filters sometimes have two to three
times as much as a Fram (total junk in others ways, too). Purolators are
almost as good and I found an Italian built house brand that was very
nice, too, but its name is forever lost in my old brain. A quality
filter will flow more and therefore give you more volume and pressure at
the lifters.
I believe thin oil and wear on the lifter parts are the main culprits.
This is something very few here even think about, but 20w-50 is not 50
weight oil once it has been hot a few times. 50 weight oil is 50 weight
oil forever. (Maybe not forever, but MUCH longer.) Multi-vis oil starts
with thin base stock and adds VI improvers to make it thicker. These
break down with use and high temps, leaving only the thin base stock.
I use straight weight 40 Shell for 9 months of the year and synthetic in
the winter. Synthetic is really a good idea 12 months of the year, but
I'm too cheap.
The noise you are hearing is slap at all the clearance points:
cam-lifter, lifter-pushrod, pushrod-rocker ball, and rocker tip-valve
stem. The ball jointed ends of the pushrods probably make the least
noise, because they take up a bit more gradually.
The total travel is about 4 turns of the valve adjusting screw, so 4x
whatever the pitch is: 1.0, 1.25 (?)
Somebody here knows! It's 10mm x ? screw. 4-6mm anyway.
I agree, new lifters might wipe out the old cam, maybe not. Used lifters
would likely wear in better- already closer to the right radius, but are
they good plunger- wise?
I'd try thicker oil first, also just screw them down tighter. Another
1/2-1 turn. I've seen them run okay at 4 turns! (I don't recommend
anymore than 1-1/2, though.
Al Brase
Anonymous Digest wrote:
>The issue of the clacking lifters has long intrigued me, as I know about
>it, I have had it for a long time, and no oil filter or viscosity of oil
>has ever made a difference. I kind of left out the history of the engine,
>because I posted without thinking of how my words would be viewed. :-) I
>am aware that my lifters are old and tired and are the cause of the noise,
>but at least now, it seems I have found a way to lighten the abuse of
>starting it after it has sat for a long time, and that can only help
>extend its life a bit more.
>
>Parking the van on the slight incline makes a difference, and although I
>am pleased that it does, I have no explanation of why it helps. If I drove
>the van up onto your basic set of ramps, it would be more than twice the
>incline that my driveway introduces. I know that the oil pan is not very
>deep, so I guess a small angle makes a big difference, but I am still
>trying to picture why it helps, and am not getting very good reception on
>that picture, yet....
>
> Frankly, I don't even know yet exactly what the noise is when it starts
>up clattering like it does. Its not clattering rocker arms, like in my old
>V8s when they needed adjustment, it is a noise from inside, towards the
>center of the engine, and it is loud. If I was new to the Van engine, I
>would be sure that it was going to self destruct. <g>
>
>How much difference is there between the length/height of a lifter that is
>drained/collapsed, and one that is all pumped up and ready to rock? The
>noise is pretty intense for what I perceive to be a very small amount of
>slop.
>
>FWIW, the engine runs just as well when it is noisy as when it quiets
>down, and when it is quiet, it runs so smooth it makes me cry to think I
>will have to replace it if I want to get back to a fair amount of power.
>Its tired, but it runs so very smooth and quiet.......
>
>I will listen as well to the wisdom of those more in the know than I, but
>I don't think that the oil filter can have any effect on this problem,
>with or without a check valve, on an air cooled engine, as it is prefectly
>vertical, and if there is enough oil in the engine, the filter is full,
>and a check valve isn't going to do anything. Given an angled mount, like
>on the water cooled engines, I can sort of see it. The filter is below the
>sump, so I have no idea how any check valve can keep oil from draining out
>of the upper reaches of the engine. Its a mystery to me.
>
>Once in a while, over the years, when it is really noisy, I will put in
>1/2 qt of MMO, and it quiets down after a while. Did the MMO help, or did
>it just get quiet as it normally would? I have no idea but I am sure the
>MMO can't hurt, and it might have helped, so if someone is clattering
>away, try the Mystery Oil and see what happens.
>
>Also, I have asked this before and it slipped through the cracks, but in
>the world of engine rebuilds I grew up in, not any VWs in the bunch,
>installing new lifters on a cam with 200K miles is frowned upon and tends
>to wipe out the cam after not very long. What is the opinion of those who
>know more than I do, about this?
>
>Thanks for all the feedback and comments,
>
>John
>
>
>
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