Date:         Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:15:38 -0800
Reply-To:     Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Subject:      Re: idiot's guide to vanagon seam rust repair.  please read
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=original

Maybe rust never sleeps but perhaps it has yet to read an email like this'n.
: )
My wife looked at it and called it 'War and Rust'.

Cya,
Robert

----- Original Message -----
From: <JordanVw@AOL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:57 AM
Subject: idiot's guide to vanagon seam rust repair. please read


> ive been listening to people give their ideas about dealing with the seam
> rust..  some good, some bad.
>
> if the metal is thin, perforated, or full of holes, then it needs to be
> cut
> out.   but if its just SURFACE RUST then cutting out the metal and
> replacing it
> will make it WORSE.  yep, worse.
>
> the vanagon is a unibody...the seams are where panels are joined together,
> and flanged in, often 3 or 4 panels (that you cannot see) come together at
> a
> seam.  you cut all that out, then you have to go inside the van, remove
> all the
> interior panels and weld up all those different panels from the inside,
> and
> below, not to mention the panels you have just disturbed in cavaties you
> cannot
> see - or even get at!!!   ..inner rocker panels, where floor is welded to
> frame
> rail, etc, etc...  basically this translates into ALOT OF WORK. and alot
> of
> $$.    cutting out metal should only be done as a last resort..then the
> metal
> is full of holes or thin.
>
> you have to remember when you cut out metal, and weld in a patch you are
> disturbing the original structural integrity of the vehicle..water drain
> patterns
> may be altered/blocked, etc - if the job isnt done 100% right then the
> outcome
> will be worse than what you are trying to fix in the first place.  alot of
> times, bodyshops will spotweld in new panels or patches - not run a
> continous
> mig weld bead around the patch like should be done - just a spot weld here
> and
> there to hold the piece on.  ive even seen some GLUE panels in..  then
> they
> fill around the seams/gaps with bodyfiller, bondo, fiberglass or whatever.
> bondo, smooth and a pretty paint job.  out of sight out of mind.    in a
> year you
> have bondo bubbles in the shape of the patch where the water and rust has
> come
> thru from behind, because the panel wasn't properly welded in. bondo and
> most
> bodyfillers are not water resistant. they will let water thru. bondo is
> the
> worst thing to fix rust holes.  bodyshops cut corners.  especially on rust
> repair jobs. 99% of bodyshops love insurance work, and hate rust repair.
>
> nothing is as good as the factory welds.
>
> for minor seam rust - surface rust -   where the metal is still solid -
> then
> no cutting is needed.  just proper prep and treatment of the metal.
>
> seam rust comes from behind.   like others have said, if you dont take
> care
> of the problem at its orgin, it will return.
>
> * seam rust happens because the body seam sealer that is applied at the
> factory, shrinks/cracks, etc and water/dirt/salt/crud  goes into the
> cracks,
> exposing the untreated metal, and rust starts.  the rust/water etc will
> take the
> path of least resistance - thru the seam.
>
> where vanagons rust:
>
> front-
> above bumper "rebar".  this is the unibody bumper rebar that your bumper
> bolts to.  there is a seam between this and the front nose sheetmetal..
> this seam
> is one of the few vanagons seams that rusts from the OUTSIDE.  factory
> seam
> sealer cracks, and water comes in.  ive seen vans here totally rotted
> thru,
> needing sheetmetal replacement.
>
> drivers side-
> the vertical seam behind the drivers wheelwell, or at the back of the
> "dogleg". where your gas cap would be if it were on the drivers side.
> this vertical seam rusts from behind..the seam inside the wheelwell.
> those
> of you with '88-'91 vanagons with the full fiberglass bodykit should
> remove
> your sideskirts and inspect these areas. those fancy bodykits do a good
> job at
> concealing the rust.. out of sight, out of mind, out of control..
>
> drivers rocker seam rust-
> the drivers rocker seam rust is USUALLY only prevalant on full GL
> westfalias,
> with the 3 accessory fill ports cut int he drivers side..  this can also
> be
> accompanied with rust thru directly below the fill ports.  if there is
> rust
> directly below the fill ports, then panel replacement is necessary.
> what happens:
> when westfalia-weke converts these vanagons into campers at their factory,
> they cut the holes into the side of the van for the fill ports/flue vent.
> then
> they install the ports, only using a foam gasket as a seal against the
> body.
> 20 years later, this foam seal is dust. water enters around these fill
> ports,
> and flows down the inside wall of the camper. this wall is insulated with
> fiberglass insulation, so the water soaks it, and never dries out.  there
> is a
> horizontal bodybeam directly below the fill ports, and alot of times water
> collects on this beam and the result is the rust-thru you see directly
> below the
> fill ports, right in the middle of the side panel.  water also collects at
> the
> seam where the floor meets the sidepanel and rocker seam. water weeps thru
> the
> rocker seam from behind the kitchen area, and there you have your drivers
> side
> rocker seam rust.
> if people only re-sealed their accy fill ports, none of this would happen.
> simple  caulking around the ports will keep water out.
>
> seam rust behind rear wheels-
> this seam rust comes from inside the rear wheel wells at the rear
> seams..again, its from factory seam sealer shrinking, and water entering
> seams from
> behind.
>
> rust around windshield and side window and hatch window seals-
> alot of times when you have a glass replacement, the shops use a razor
> blade
> when cutting out the old seal, and paint is scratched, not touched up, and
> rust happens under window seal.  most of the time its just from
> dirt/salt/crud
> buildup under the seal and then rust starts do develop.  you must pull the
> windows out to adress this problem
>
> rust at bottom edges of rear hatch-
> if you open your hatch and look at each inside bottom corner, there are 2
> black plastic plugs.  remove them.  these do nothing other than hold water
> inside
> your hatch at the bottom, and are the reason the hatches rust out at the
> bottom corners.  dumb idea from volkswagen to plug the drain holes.
>
> rust at bottom of sliding door-
> this is more common on 80-84 sliding doors, but i have seen some 85 up
> sliders with bottom rust as well.    this is due to a lack of drainholes
> in the
> bottom of the sliding door (only 2)  and dirt/salt crud gets built up in
> the
> bottom of the sliding door and rusts out from behind.   this is why solid
> 80-84
> sliding doors are extremely hard to find in the northeast.
>
> there are other areas as well, but those are the main ones..
>
> when i repair seam rust, i do this.
>
> START FROM BEHIND.
> go inside the wheelwells, directly opposide of the exterior seam rust,
> with a
> flathead screwdriver.  poke around, and you will most likely see the
> factory
> undercoating/seam sealer bubbled up, and scrape off the LOOSE
> undercoating/seam sealer.  scrape it down until you start to see shiny
> metal.   a small spot
> /portable sandblaster is nice if you have it, but not necessary.   i use a
> drill or dremel with wire wheel attachment, or a wire brush in hard to
> reach
> areas.  USE GOGGLES!!   wire brust/blast all the loose rust off
> till,shiny.  if the
> rust is scaled bad, use a flathead and scrape it down till all the loose
> metal is off.  then i use some serious grit emery sandpaper.. like 50
> grit..
> either on a drill or dremel or by hand.  use a screwdriver nd pick out all
> loose
> seam sealer, but not the stuff that is still pliable.   when the metal is
> all
> cleaned up, then you want to clean it..i use paint thinner/spirits  to
> clean
> the metal.
>
> then when the cleaner is dried off,  i treat all bare metal with
> EXTEND..or
> RUST MORT..or rustoleum RUST CONVERTER. available at WalMArt..comes in a
> little
> plastic jar.  you basically paint it on with a brush.. it goes thru a
> chemical transformation and changes the metal to a black look. this has to
> be done
> above 50 degrees or the stuff wont work properly (in colder temps, a
> hairdryer
> will help it cure properly) whent he metal turns black you know its cured
> right.
>
>
> then i take some new seam sealer - available at your local auto parts
> store
> or NAPA, squirt it from a regular caulking gun..into the seams.   the
> seams
> only.. dont smear it all over the place, just caulk it into the seams.  if
> you
> have a situation where some metal has seperated from the seams, then
> squirt the
> seam sealer into the seams and then tap the metal back down lightly.  wipe
> all
> excess seam sealer off that gets on surrounding metal.
>
> once the seam sealer has set up (it will always remain pliable)  you can
> mask
> off the area you dont want to get paint or overspray on, with masking tape
> and newspaper, and then spray the area with primer. i use rustolem or
> krylon.
> the grey primer.
>
> then (if inside wheelwell surface) spray the whole area with 2 coats of
> rubberized undercoating..available at any FLAPS and youre done.
>
> then for (if exterior bodycolor surface)  - when the initial primer coat
> dries, you can start your filling of the surface abrasions or pits.  you
> can use
> fiberglass bodyfiller or spot putty (depending on how deep the pits in the
> metal are) to build the surface back up smooth.  you want a thin coat.
> when the
> filler/spot putty sets up, then sand smooth..feathering into the
> surrounding
> surface.
> wipe clean and then follow with another thin  coat of spot putty to fill
> sand
> marks or any other pits.  then sand with finer grit paper once that sets
> up.
>
> wipe whole area clean and you are now ready for your top primer coat.
> mask
> off areas you dont want to get overspray on.  you dont want to mask off
> directly around the repaired area, you want to feather primer out, so you
> dont get
> "tape lines" in the primer.
>
> prime area.. then when dry,  sand whole area primed with 1500+ paper ,
> feathering all  imperfections.
>
> you can use paint thinner to quickly wipe off any unwanted primer
> overspray,
> or laquer thinner if its been on there awhile.
>
> once area is totally dried, sanded, and clean, you are ready for your
> final
> topcoat.
> some of the factory paint color are still available from the VW dealer in
> the
> small spray cans.  or you can go to www.paintscratch.com and you can find
> your color there..they will mix it up for a factory match, and put it in a
> spray
> can for you.
>
> topcoat the whole area that was repaired, using even left to right
> strokes,
> keeping the spray away from the surface so it doesnt run.   apply another
> coat
> once dried.
> then top with clearcoat if applicable (metallics are clearcoated)
>
> easy.  saturday job at the most.
>
> alternatively, if you want to skip the topcoat steps, and just want to do
> a 5
> minute fix to keep the rust from getting worse, the least you can do is
> scrape off the loose metal and apply the rust coverter stuff..paint it
> on..with a
> q-tip even.. it will keep the rust from getting any worse until you can
> fix it
> right.
>
>
> now NOBODY should have an excuse to go around with untreated seam rust on
> their vanagons or any car for that matter..
>
> chris