Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:51:51 -0600
Reply-To: John Rodgers <inua@CHARTER.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: John Rodgers <inua@CHARTER.NET>
Subject: Re: 15" Wheel/Tire Report - Caution
In-Reply-To: <027101c52909$541c1c20$210110ac@RON>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Ron,
Your comments support my contention that to use a tire that does not
meet the Vanagon specs is asking for trouble with one's insurance
company. As money tightens, so will their desire to reduce money paid
out in claims, and any old excuse will do.
But as a practical matter, all the tire failures that I can ever
remember having on any vehicle except one, were from sidewall damage.
The exception was a set of Michelins on a Jeep Wagoneer LTD. In that
case it was tread separation. On the rest, it was the sidewalls that
gave up for various reasons, usually the running over of some sharp
object that punctured the sidewall because of the way the sidewall
bulges out on a tire without the stiffness of the LT type tire, or from
unexpectedly hitting a chuck-hole and the tire sidewall collapsing to
the point that the rim strikes the edge of the chuck-hole, thus breaking
or cutting the mesh in the sidewall.
I have never had a tire failure of any kind on either of my Vanagon
GL's, except for puncture damage on the tread, never a sidewall issue,
but then I ALWAYS run very tough tires with very stiff sidewalls that
stand up very straight and tall. At the moment I have Michelin XCA's on
which the sidewalls are hell-for-stout. The tires almost stand up even
when there is no air in them, those sidewalls are so stiff.. I wouldn't
run them that way, but they are tough. That strong stiff sidewall makes
a HUGE difference in the handling in winds or in truck turbulence on the
road.
If I was running a Westy, there is no way I would ever put ANY tire on
it that didn't have that really stiff, re-inforced sidewall.
If the re-inforced sidewall spec is there, it is there for good reason
on this vehicle and the effects of not having that tire type can easily
be felt in the way the vehicle handles. Thus I see it as an issue upon
which the insurance companies can hang their hat.
Regards,
John Rodgers
88 GL Driver
Chelsea, AL
The Bus Depot wrote:
>>You need more than the 97T load rating to have a safe tire.
>>97T just says how much weight the tire can support rolling
>>down the highway without SIDE load. The Volkswagen spec is a
>>tire that has REINFORCED SIDEWALLS or a LT rating. The
>>reinforced sidewalls is what the HydoEdge are missing and it
>>is what makes any P rated tire on a Vanagon dangerous.
>>
>>
>
>
>Absolutely true - even in a 15" size. GoWesty's claims to the contrary are
>simply not supported by Volkswagen's own specificatons. Volkswagen has
>always specified that ONLY reinforced tires be used on their vans - even in
>cases where a 15" wheel is used. Both prior to 1968 and after 1992,
>Volkswagen/Germany offered factory 15" wheels on their vans. On BOTH of
>these, Volkswagen specified reinforced sidewall tires, just as they did on
>models that had 14" wheels. This despite the fact that doing so reduced
>their profit margin (since they had to equip their vans with pricier tires).
>So it can be demonstrated that Volkswagen's engineers do not concur with
>GoWesty and others who say that a non-reinforced tire "will do just fine" if
>it's 15 inches. Sure, people use non-reinforced tires on their VW vans all
>the time and live to tell about it. Many people don't use seatbelts and live
>to tell about it too, but this does not make it smart. You will not know
>whether you have compromised your van's handling until it is too late. It
>will probably handle just fine in normal driving. But under extreme
>conditions, when it matters most - such as a sudden "panic" swerve to avoid
>an accident, which puts tremendous strain on the sidewall - the correctly
>rated tire could make the difference between avoiding an accident and
>flipping your van. Between life and death. Is it worth the risk?
>
>So you need reinforced tires. Period. If you're considering the switch to
>15" wheels, price these before you jump. They're not particularly cheap, as
>any Eurovan owner will attest. GoWesty's claim of cost-saving over the long
>run is based on using non-reinforced tires, which is a no-no. Good 14"
>reinforced tires run as low as $69; I think you'd be hard pressed to find a
>good 15" reinforced tire for that price.
>
>If you do make the switch, using a 65 series tire on a 15" rim will indeed
>give you roughly the same ride height as the stock 14" configuration,
>because the taller wheel is offset by the shorter tire. This is also the
>only combination that will maintain the accuracy of your speedometer. But
>all things being equal (that is, if you use the correctly rated tire in both
>cases, which for safety's sake you must), you will sacrifice some ride
>comfort. This combination means more metal and less rubber between you and
>the road. Rubber cushions your ride; metal does not. Taken to an extreme,
>the current "import tuner" trend toward huge wheels and really low profile
>tires has made this fact very apparent. Those cars may look cool, with all
>wheel and no rubber. But they ride like go-carts, and regularly suffer tire
>failure. That is why the auto and tire manufacturers will not warranty these
>modifications.
>
>Another option is to go with 15" wheels and taller reinforced tires, which
>would avoid any compromise in ride comfort or safety. This would make your
>van taller, which can be a big advantage to Syncro owners who take their
>vans off-road and need extra ground clearance. However, it can also be
>disadvantage to those who don't off-road but would like their Vanagon to fit
>in parking garages and carports. (Also it will slightly throw off your
>speedometer reading.)
>
>I sell 15" alloys myself, so my frankness may cost me a sale or two, but my
>own opinion is that the only real reason to go with 15" wheels (unless
>you're looking for increased offroad ground clearance) is looks. It is not a
>cost-saver, nor does it improve ride comfort or safety. So it really all
>boils down to looks. I have not made the switch on my own Vanagon because
>personally I do not feel that the cosmetic improvement justifies the
>substantial cost. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and others
>do feel that the look alone is worth the price of admission. So if you like
>the look, go for it (and use properly-rated tires, for gods sake!). But if
>your primary goal is cheaper tires or a more comfortable ride, don't waste
>your money.
>
>For more information on reinforced tires and tire safety, see
><http://busdepot.com/busdepot/details/tires.jsp>.
>
>- Ron Salmon
> The Bus Depot, Inc.
> www.busdepot.com
> (215) 234-VWVW
>
>_____________________________________________
>Toll-Free for Orders by PART # : 1-866-BUS-DEPOT
>
>
>
>
>
>>Best thing to do in your situation is step up to a
>>LT215/75R15 - not much larger, but a heck of a lot safer.
>>
>>I share your caution - good luck on the replacements.
>>
>>David Marshall
>>
>>Fast Forward Automotive Inc.
>>4356 Quesnel-Hixon Road
>>Quesnel BC Canada V2J 6Z3
>>
>>http://www.fastforward.ca mailto:sales@fastforward.ca
>>Phone: (250) 992 7775 FAX: (250) 992 1160
>>
>>- Vanagon Accessories and Engine Conversions
>>- Vanagon, Transporter and Iltis Sales and Importation
>>- European Lighting for most Volkswagen models
>>
>>
>>Due to the large volume of email we receive, PLEASE
>>include previous emails when responding. This will allow us
>>to read the complete dialogue in one message and will result
>>in quicker and more accurate responses.
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Vanagon Mailing List
>>[mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]On Behalf Of Larry Chase
>>Sent: March 14, 2005 6:06 AM
>>To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>Subject: Re: 15" Wheel/Tire Report - Caution
>>
>>
>>Robert,
>>
>>Note sure what vehicle you put these on ... But if it's a
>>Westy I have a concern.
>>
>>Please forgive me but I have to caution folks on the use
>> of the Michelin HydroEdge (215/65-15) tire on a Westy Vanagon.
>>
>>This is a passenger car tire that "MICHELIN DOES NOT
>>RECOMMEND" for a VW Vanagon Westy.
>>
>>http://www.tirerack.com/tires/michelin/michelin.jsp
>>
>>The generally agreed upon specs for a proper Westy tire are:
>>
>>Load Index - 97 (1609-1652 lbs)
>>
>>This tire has a:
>>
>>Load Index - 95 (1521 lbs)
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/557gq
>>
>>Also .... Passenger car tire specs need to be "derated"
>>by 10% for use on a Light Truck application.
>>
>>This is an industry standard.
>>
>>That would reduce the load Index rating of this tire to: 1369 lbs.
>>
>>Under perfect conditions this tire will ride and handle fine
>>... Because of its low profile, often a huge improvement if
>>the previous tires were also passenger car tires.
>>
>>But the danger is that there is "No Margin For Safety".
>>
>>I know that GoWesty feels these tire are appropriate ....
>>
>>They have a detial explanation on their web site that is very
>> impressive.
>>
>>But if the Manufacturing of the tire will not warranty it
>>for this application ... What does that tell you?
>>
>>Does GoWesty know more than the tire manufacturer?
>>
>>I'd really hate to see anyone put themselves or anyone else at risk.
>>
>>larry chase
>>roadhaus.com
>>
>>- - -
>>
>>Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:51:37 -0500
>>From: Robert Campbell <vanagon-rcampbell@USA.NET>
>>Subject: 15" Wheel/Tire Report
>>
>>Hello Gang!
>>
>>I pulled the trigger and purchased the 15" alloy wheel/tire
>>set from GoWesty.com -- after about 50 miles on this simple
>>(but not cheap) bolt-o= n upgrade I gotta tell you that it is GREAT!
>>
>>Going from the 185 to a 215 tire width is a tremendous
>>improvement in stability. And the Michelin
>>HydroEdge=E2=84=A2 (215/65-15) are quiet and= provide a nice
>>ride! I notice a major improvement in the shimmy/shake from
>>the win= d turbulence when following a tractor-trailer,
>>nearly gone! And cornering = feels much better now -- I
>>don't notice the "lean" as much.
>>
>>So, if you need tires, I would STRONGLY recommend the 15"
>>wheel upgrade a= nd good tires. I believe I will be very
>>happy with the hydroedge tires as I= live in Florida where I
>>deal only with water on the roadways.
>>
>>The process in dealing with GoWesty.com was very smooth and I
>>whole-heart= edly recommend them for your Vanagon needs! UPS
>>delivered my wheels (over 2 d=
>>ays)
>>and I installed them yesterday. The best $1000 spent to date
>>on my daily=
>>
>>driver!
>>
>><end report>
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