Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 12:14:54 -0700
Reply-To: Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Subject: Re: serious vanagon security issues
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'Course the first thing that occurs to me on reading this is that if there
had a been an armed bad guy out there your two heads would have made a hell
of a target; lit up well and everything.
Made me think of this night-time security drill I took part of in the Navy-
the scenario was that the 'bad guys' (a Seal/EOD group that was on board to
train us) had taken the OOD hostage and were holding him on top of the helo
hanger. Our priority goal was to 'save' him.
Somebody decided to spotlight these guys with the high-power beacon light on
the mack, so the place was light up like Christmas. The idiot in charge of
my detail decided we should crawl up on the helo hanger with the baddies and
try to hole up behind some equipment up there. I pointed out that we were in
our t-shirts and we would be backlit like on a movie screen, making
exceptional targets for anybody but Helen Keller. He insisted, I
'strenuously' objected, he made it an order; we went up and over together (3
of us) and we were promptly 'killed'. I did not enjoy the ass-reaming we
received at the debriefing and I was quite vocal about the quality of
leadership on our security detail; needless to say we failed our security
quals for that evolution.
If I had to do it again, I would have boosted Mr. Decision Maker over and
let him take it in the head, as opposed to allowing myself and the other
gunner to be killed along with him. Following the orders of dead people is
largely a matter of judgment, particularly if you are then in 'command', as
I would have been. My idea of how to take those guys, as I voiced it later,
turned out to be close to the 'best out of a bad lot' of options- turned out
the drill was a loser for us by design, the idea for the training was to see
how well we could make the best of it.
My solution, btw, was that the OOD was non-essential and basically dead
anyway so we should concentrate on complete elimination of threat for the
well-being of the ship, with a possible secondary goal of capture for
interrogation. The OOD and couple of other junior officers got quite heated
about my assessment of their value to the command but they were even more
offended and embarrassed when the training team leader agreed with me.
Some days are bittersweet.
Cya,
Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug in Calif" <vanagon@ASTOUND.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: serious vanagon security issues
>I totally agree with Don,
> One woman is killed in a Taxi here in SF area and millions of women all
> over
> the US
> are now afraid to get in a taxi late at night alone.
>
> We ourselves are to blame for this for not really thinking and getting
> perspective.
> The media is also largely to blame for its constant brainwashing.
>
> Several years back my girlfriend and I were snow camping up in lake Tahoe
> in
> my
> van. We were the only ones in the campground up there and no ranger, you
> just drop your
> $12 into the pipe and the ranger cruises through in the morning.
>
> She was freaking out about us being alone, thinking there were bad guys
> out
> there in the 20 degree weather
> waiting behind the trees to get us. I finally rolled the sunroof open and
> got my mag light and the two of us stood
> up in the van with just our heads popping out and looked around the whole
> area with the light. I told her "you drive
> through downtown Oakland every day, the ODDS of you getting attacked THERE
> compared to up here right not are so far off the chart
> you and me both would literally be FAMOUS for being attacked up here in
> Tahoe in a campground in the middle of winter.
> I also showed her that I had brought my handgun, and even though she is an
> "anti-gunner" she seemed to feel safer knowing we had a line of defense.
>
> I believe we have become a very sad state here in the US mentally towards
> how we interact with each other.
> You go to other countries and even though they have their problems they
> interact in a more positive way with each other IMHO.
>
> Doug
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donald Baxter" <onanov@GMAIL.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: serious vanagon security issues
>
>
>> Americans have irrational fears of things that aren't back up by
>> statistics--even in Iowa City kids aren't much allowed to even walk to
>> school--this in the day when statistically, across the country, crime
>> rates are actually down from the 1960s and 70s. Property crimes may
>> be up--but our physical selves are actually safer.
>>
>> The baby boomers grew up--and most crime is perpetuated by persons who
>> are younger and have much more energy than most of us have left :-)
>>
>> On 8/6/05, Christopher Gronski <gronski@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Its not exactly about fear of eBay trading (nor Vanagons) but just saw
>> > a BBC documentary on fear in the US called "The Power of Nightmares",
>> > and its is a MUST SEE:
>> >
>> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>> > On 8/5/05, Robert Rountree <syncro87@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > > I'm an American/Canadian.. born in the US, did the Navy, College in
> Canada.
>> > > I shop on E-bay and I'm finding the same problems, about people
>> > > afraid
> of
>> > > shipping to Canada. Yet I drive and ship to The US all the time.. no
>> > > problem... here's the strange part for me (you knew the strange part
> was
>> > > coming right?).... of all this talk about break-in's and stealing
> stuff and
>> > > dishonest folks on e-bay... did ya happen to notice none of us
> Canadians are
>> > > talking about this happening to us? and there are a lot of us on this
>> > > list.... the fear all seems to be south of the border.. and this new
> drummed
>> > > up fear really breaks my heart to see.
>> > >
>> > > RR
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> ---------------------------------------------
>> Donald Baxter
>> 316 Ridgeview Avenue
>> University Heights, Iowa 52246
>> www.onanov.com
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