Date:         Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:18:00 -0400
Reply-To:     The Bus Depot <vanagon@BUSDEPOT.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         The Bus Depot <vanagon@BUSDEPOT.COM>
Subject:      "Hitachi" starter in a Vanagon - the real scoop
In-Reply-To:  <014601c597aa$500beb00$0a0ba8c0@RON>
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> Dead bosch starter will take a few days to get the induction
> motor from http://gowesty.com/starter_story.htm
> 
> any know how I can source this from my local OEM starter 
> rebuilders ?  Looks like I just need the hitachi part number
> & maybe the solenoid node that they have rigged it to ??



Just following up on this, as I said I'd research it after the above
question was posed a few weeks ago...

As someone else already suggested, the IMI-104 starter that GoWesty lists
and pictures is actually a starter by a company called IMI. I spoke at
length to the owner of IMI last week (very nice guy, by the way). To cut to
the chase, it is not a Hitachi, but a NipponDenso. Also, it is not new, but
rebuilt.  For those who are interested, here is the long version of the
story...

IMI owns the patent on a universal adapter designed to allow one starter to
fit in a vehicle intended for another. They make this for a variety of
automotive makes. Their specialty is high-torque starters for use in
high-compression, high-performance engines, for which a stock starter may
have insufficient torque to turn the engine. However, some back they also
developed a couple of models for aircooled VW's with input from Gene Berg.
Basically these are OEM NipponDenso starters bolted to IMI's exclusive
mounting adapter. (Hance they won't fit a VW without their adapter - and
no, they won't sell the adapter separately; I asked. :-)  One of the two
units, the IMI-104, also happens to fit manual-transmission 2WD Vanagons
(air or water cooled).  

The owner of IMI told me that for some time now the IMI-104 has actually
been supplied with a remanufactured starter drive, as their supply of new
ones from NipponDenso had dried up. Therefore, technically it is not new but
rebuilt. He said IMI hopes to be able to come up with another application
that might allow them to use a fully-new NipponDenso unit again on their
IMI-104, sometime in the future.

The IMI starter seems to be a quality product, but it is also quite a bit
more expensive than the Bosch. The question is whether it's worth the price
difference.  That is for the buyer to decide. Here are my thoughts on the
issue, FWIW.

To me, a major advantage to some prospective buyers would be if it actually
were all-new. Then you would be getting a new NipponDenso, versus a rebuilt
Bosch. (Not that rebuilt Bosch's are inherently unreliable, but some people
prefer new over rebuilt as a matter of course.)  However, at the moment it
is not new, so this wipes out that particular advantage (for now).
Interestingly, none of the IMI dealers I found online mention that the
IMI-104 is not new, so I'm not picking on Go Westy here. Perhaps I just
asked more questions than others did, so I learned more about what goes into
this product. Still, by definition a product that is made partially of
rebuilt components is now new, and if I were to sell it (as it is currently
supplied) I would not represent it as new.

Another benefit of the IMI starter is its higher torque. This could be
useful if your Vanagon engine has been modified from stock, and seems to
turn slowly with the stock Bosch starter.  As for stock engines, I'm
wondering if it's overkill; the Bosch starter seems to have no problem
turning the stock Vanagon engine when working correctly. Remember, IMI's
core business is apparantly starters for racing engines and the like, which
a stock Vanagon engine is not.  

A third benefit is that due to its different design, it is apparantly not
prone to the "won't start-when-hot" syndrome that plagues some Busses (and
fewer aircooled Vanagons). The reason for this tendancy on some Busses is
that on a Bus the battery is all the way in the back, and the current is
routed all the way across the Bus to the ignition switch at the dash and
then back to the engine compartment again. With 40 feet of unneccessary
wiring, and a few extra connections along the way, it's succeptable to
voltage drop if corrosion or wear occurs at the terminals. This can cause
the solenoid to stick when radiant engine heat causes its sleeve to contract
slightly. This problem is much less common on an aircooled Vanagons than on
Busses (due, I suppose, to closer proximity of the battery to the ignition
switch on a Vanagon), and even more rare on watercooled Vanagons.  There are
several ways to "fix" the hot-start problem if it happens (and is not simply
due to a worn solenoid). One is to tighten and clean all connections, which
often solves the problem. Another is to add a relay that routes the voltage
directly from the battery to the starter, bypassing all that excess wiring
(the most common solution, recommended by John Muir and Gene Berg among
others, and usually effective). I and others sell such a relay kit for under
$20 and it's not hard to install.  A third option would be to go with the
IMI starter, which is less succeptable to this issue. Of the three options,
the IMI starter is the most expensive solution to the problem (which is rare
on watercooled Vanagons, and even somewhat on aircooled ones, anyway).
Again, this gives the IMI starter an advantage over a Bosch (at least one
without a relay kit installed), but again perhaps it is overkill for many
people from a value standpoint.

My conclusion, after weighing the data, was that the IMI certainly appears
to be an excellent unit, and has some advantages over the Bosch (at least
theoretically). The company also impressed me with their candor and
excitement about their product. But the large price difference is hard for
me to justify if both starters are actually rebuilt, and given that some of
its other benefits may provide little "real world" advantage to many users.
So for the time being I'm going to let it go, and leave that business to Go
Westy and other IMI resellers. However, I willl check in with IMI
periodically, as I could see recommending this starter more strongly if it
had the added benefit of being new (particularly if used on Vanagons with
modified engines, or on Busses which are more prone to the "hot start"
issue).

Anyway, that's the result of my research. Now you know exactly as much as I
do.

- Ron Salmon
  The Bus Depot, Inc.
  www.busdepot.com
  (215)  234-VWVW

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