Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:50:26 -0500
Reply-To: "Bostig Eng." <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "Bostig Eng." <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Subject: Re: Ceramic Coat Catalytic Converter?
In-Reply-To: <002801c5eb86$39f94670$6501a8c0@noner4688xfd1h>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Stan!
You're half full of crap.
I agree with Frank that 3XX series stainless is the best *average*
corrosion protection for exhausts, in fact I doubt that there is anyone
that doesn't sell ceramic coatings that would disagree. Are you telling me
that if you ceramic coat a mild steel exhaust, it will miraculously not
rust from the inside? I doubt if you can really get a good coating on the
insides of all exhaust sections, but correct me if I'm wrong. We have our
cast exhaust manifold coated inside and outside, and it is a fantastic
coating, very durable(I have seen plenty of cheap ceramic coatings too),
but we do it for heat rejection (something stainless can't help with) and
in fact we see less radiant heat from the inside/outside coated manifold
than when we hand wrap the manifolds in fiberglass!
Anyhow back the rusting... granted it won't go as fast as an uncoated
exhaust since it will be fresh water inside and no road salt, but it will
rust out.. maybe it'll take 5 years but it will eventually just maybe not
as fast as plain mild or aluminized. Even stainless is no guarantee against
corrosion and rust, 409 is meant to surface rust, and with 304 you'll
always get some carbide precipitation around the heat affected zones of the
welds... the only rust resitant exhaust you can get will be inconel or
titanium, but with the price it simply isn't worth it(I've seen a Ti
porsche exhaust for $22k), or you could try to find someone to make you an
exhaust from 316L, 321, or 347 stainless.. which will still cost you an arm
an a leg.
The best idea when approching exhausts is to NEVER think you are going to
buy one and it will last the rest of your life(if the vehicle is a daily
driver) but rather to get the best mix of cost/longevity/performance/sound
suppresion depending on how you prioritize, and accept it. For instance, on
the zetec conversion, we go with 304 stainless except on the muffler, which
is alumized and one should expect to replace it every 2-5 years on salty
roads... why? Because the money that was spent developing that aluminized
muffler pays off in its flow numbers vs. sound suppression. Nobody that
makes 304 stainless mufflers (as of now) spends anywhere near the
development resources on sound suppresion as say Walker(the OEMs are
starting to move on this though). Nor does anyone else use the newest
single strand Dow acoustic roving that walker does... it sucks but, since
it only takes 5 minutes, 2 tools, only costs $68 for a new muffler, and
will be available everywhere for the next 20 years. We chose that trade off
over a louder 304 muffler. Additionally, mufflers depending on their design
do "wear" in that the fill materials do clog and alter both flow and sound
levels over time, if you're just running baffles it isn't as critical.
Jim Akiba
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bostig Engineering
http://www.bostig.com/products/zetec/
978.772.3274
At 09:50 AM 11/17/2005, Stan Wilder wrote:
>Frank!
>You're full of crap.
>I've been coating exhaust systems with Ceramic for about 4 years now and
>I've never had the report of a defect from my coatings process.
>No reports of rusty spots or ceramic material flaking off.
>Lots of these ceramic customers are local Porsche, Mustang, Firebird club
>members that I see many times during the year at club meetings and car
>shows.
>I do lots of coatings on motorcycle pipes and the coatings are easily
>inspected and my work has held up just fine.
>If you've had a problem it's because the material wasn't properly applied to
>a properly cleaned and prepared part.
>Now if you say somebody screwed you and did a crappy ceramic job for you
>I'll understand that.
>To just overall condemn all Ceramic Coatings on exhaust is just ignorance.
>
>Stan Wilder
>Engine Ceramics
>214-352-4931
>www.engineceramics.com
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Frank Condelli" <RAlanen@AOL.COM>
>To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 5:35 AM
>Subject: Re: Ceramic Coat Catalytic Converter?
>
>
> > In a message dated 16/11/2005 1:39:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > LISTSERV@GERRY.VANAGON.COM writes:
> >
> > Re: Ceramic Coat Catalytic Converter?
> >
> >
> >
> > STAINLEES STEEL is the only way to beat this exhaust loss problem. My
> > system on my '87 Westy is now over eight years old and still intact
>except for the
> > damn flanges that DANSK so unwisely put on their stainless steel header
> > pipes, another bright idea by imbeciles. I've fixed that now by getting
>CINTUBE
> > of Montreal to make up all the header pipes with stainless steel flanges.
> > I've got a garage full of those pipes now and have spent the better part
>of the
> > last eight years getting all the exhaust parts for all waterboxer engined
> > Vanagons in production. Now every part is available in stainless steel
>except
> > for the cast iron collector on the 2.1. CAT's are Stainless Steel
>bodied,
> > and cannot last a lifetime as the internals are wearing out as you drive.
>It's
> > a part that you will ALWAYS have to replace if you drive. The cast iron
> > collector on the 2.1s are still going to be cast iron and slowly rust
>away,
> > typically 10 ~ 15 years so we have to live with that. But, the header
>pipes,
> > J-pipes and muffler tail pipe assembly will be there long after your
>outta here
> > ! Yes, I know a lot of you feel that it's quite expensive but change
>your
> > system twice and you've just paid for a system that would have lasted you
>a
> > lifetime. See my _STEBRO/Vanagon Stainless Steel Exhaust System_
> > (http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/stebro.htm) wepage for complete details.
>Sorry for the
> > commercial but, really, if your keeping that Vanagon of yours for any
>long term
> > why would you fool around doing anything else ? We have enough other
> > projects on these vans to keep us busy !
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Frank Condelli
> > Almonte, Ontario, Canada
> > '87 Westy, '90 Carat, '87 Wolfsburg (Forsale) & Lionel Trains
> > Vanagon/Vanagon Westfalia Service in the Ottawa Valley
> > _Frank Condelli & Associates_
>(http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/busindex.html)
> > _Vanagon Stainless Steel Exhaust Systems_
> > (http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/stebro.htm)
> > _BusFusion_ (http://members.aol.com/BusFusion/bfhome.htm) a VW Camper
> > camping event, Almonte, ON, June 08 ~ 11, 2006
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