Date:         Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:04:02 -0500
Reply-To:     Roger Sisler <rogersisler2000@YAHOO.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Roger Sisler <rogersisler2000@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: recap (still not fixed) Re: Update (not fixed...) Re: FIXED?
              (and, advice needed...) (was: Re: low voltage,
              starter running intermittently, but alternator is okay?)

Are you sure it is the starter solonoid clicking? I think relays can
chatter too,with a bad connection. If you hot wire at the starter, you will
bypass all the wiring from the key to the starter(except the large starter
cable).If it starts every time doing this, the problem is in your wiring
between the solonoid and the ignition switch.If it acts the same as before
(1 start in 10), that wiring and ignition switch are ok.If you do this and
the problem remains,either you have a bad solonoid, a bad starter moter, a
bad starter motor housing,a bad battery connection from the starter to the
battery, or your starter motor is not grounding to the bell housing(you
need this last posability so you get a completed  electrical circut) .The
solonoid is a coil of copper wire that becomes an electro magnet.Turning
the key to the crank position energizes this coil so it is a
magnet.Releasing the key to the run position turns this magnet off,and the
starter gear returns to its normal position(disengaged),and current to the
starter moter proper,is cut off too.Both run and start positions of the
key, allow current to get to the ignition(spark plugs). The electro magnet
controls two functions when engaged.First , it engages the starter gear
with the flywheel. Second, it allows connection of the heavy wire from the
battery,with the starter moter proper(not the solioid).When in the run
position you get a direct,heavy current to turn the starter through the big
cable.There is a yoke inside the starter that pivots to make these two
operations,decribed above, succeed. If the starter moter housing has
mechanical issues such as binding or hanging up, the gear will not engage
and the heavy current will not flow.You can check it somewhat by removing
the starter and physically prying on the gear to see if it operates
smoothly.The solonoid is an electrical item ,so any warrenty is dubious.
Lots of issues can take place to make a solonoid inoperative.Low current to
the solonoid causes it to clik, or chatter. Not enough current to hold the
internal contacts, down, and the contacts make noise.. There is about 1
mile of copper wire inside the coil. If it breaks or the insulation goes
bad, The coil/solinoid is toast.This is not your problem, as the coil
energizes 1 in 10 times. If the coil wire is broken it will most likely
notain.The coil is shaped like a donut. When energized, a plunger that goes
through this hole is "moved."Like in elementry school when you did
electromagnet experiments. The plunger is attached to a yoke that makes the
heavy current engage.It is very hard to make regular switches for heavy
currents , so they all do it this "manuel" way, .It is like a see saw. The
magnet pulls one side of the see saw down and the other side goes up and
engages the heavy current.If this binds, the car wont start.You can hear
the slamming of the yoke when solonoid current is engaged.Disconnect the
heavy wire to the starter to keep the area quiet, and listen for this
slamming to see if the starter mechanics are smooth and bind free.Remember,
that this noise is not the clicking of the solonoid.It is a different
noise.The starter must be  bolted tightly and without insulating grease
between it and the bellhousing. This, for good electrical
conductivity.Should not ever have a problem here.So, it seems that the
problem is most likley the starter moter,but you need to eliminate the
wiring and ignition switch as the problem. Do this by hot wiring at the
starter solonoid. I did this once, but I cannot remember which terminals I
used.So sorry here.You want to energize the coil, and  provide current
supply to the ignition(so it will start).Current supply to the ignition
originates from a connection at the starter. This wire goes somewhere to an
ignition component.You want to jumper the ignition terminal tobattery
power.Thiswont crank the engine though. Next, you need to jumpper from that
same battery source,tothe solinoid coil.Like I say, I havent done this in
a  couple years,so the bentley needs tobe opened up for specific
connections.Not hard to do.Let us know the results.