Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 17:06:13 -0600
Reply-To: John Rodgers <inua@CHARTER.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: John Rodgers <inua@CHARTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Firewood
In-Reply-To: <00d801c633f5$9bb65620$647ba8c0@MAIN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Robert,
Your comments on what to do with a burning airplane were very
interesting. With the army many a B-17 was lost due to an engine fire
burning through a wing and the wing breaking off. A fuel or oil fire
could be put out, but once the engine case started to burn there was no
hope. That blast of air fanning that burning magnesium made for a super
intense fire that was unstoppable.
So far as airplanes and ships at sea, the Navy was the best at fire
supression training. I remember my own training in the Navy in fire
supression -- dragging a saltwater filled hose with a nozzle or fog
applicator down a hatch, through a passageway, then through a bulkhead
door, and then to a space with an oil fire floating and sloshing back
and forth on 6 inches of water. In the heat and smoke I thought "how in
the sam hell are we going to put out this fire with water????" Well, we
learned, and got it done. The Navy taught me an awful lot.
Regards,
John Rodgers
88 GL Driver
Robert Fisher wrote:
> The firefighting training I went through in the Navy had a intensive
> section
> on magnesium fires, largely because the aircraft have so much
> magnesium in
> them. Add that to the fact that many of those aircraft will also have
> ordnance attached to them and it makes a pretty problem.
>
> The way they explained it to us was that magnesium has a high enough
> oxygen
> content in of itself that it will burn solely on its own oxygen once
> ignited. I don't know any more about it than what I was told, although
> some
> googling brought up some information that confirmed that information.
> I also
> saw some information that supports what John said as well,
> particularly the
> CO2.
>
> The Navy used a training video that showed a loaded fighter on fire, at
> night. Basically the technique in fighting those fires is to push the
> thing
> overboard. They had a few shots from different cameras showing the
> burning
> plane going into the water and then sinking. You could very clearly
> see the
> bright light from the fire as the plane sank, and the narration said that
> the fire was still visible at an estimated 200 feet- which is kind of
> astounding if you think about it. They don't even bother trying to
> fight the
> fire because if they lose control of the situation the plane (or
> rather, the
> burning magnesium mass) could melt its way down through the ship. They
> know
> this because it has happened.
>
> I saw this played out once on the Midway. It's a long story how the
> entire
> situation came to pass, but it wound up with the burning plane going over
> the side. I was thinking 'wow, 50 million right down the pisser...' They
> didn't even bother trying to get near the plane, nevermind trying to do
> anything about the fire. One lone guy (how'd you like to have this job?)
> caught it on his tractor on the side away from the fire, pushed it to the
> side of the forecastle and jumped just before the whole thing went over.
>
> Those of you that are doing these case fires might want to reconsider,
> or at
> least do some reading before you continue. The simple fact that it
> can't be
> put out readily is a problem in of itself, but there are other
> dangers- eye
> damage from the intensity of the flames, the fumes can be poisonous, etc.
> Didn't sit down to do a thesis paper but a quick scan gave a pretty clear
> picture.
>
> Additionally, the magnesium is highly reactive to acids (think of this
> when
> you're choosing an engine cleaner) and in the presence of those and even
> plain water can make it give off hydrogen gas- there were lots of 'flash
> fire' hazard warnings.
>
> Finally, I think all this lends even more weight to the fuel line
> issue. I'm
> thinking those burnt out hulks we've all seen pictures of may have
> more to
> do with the engine catching fire after the fuel fire than 'just' the fuel
> fire itself.
>
> Just some food for thought-
> Cya,
> Robert
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Rodgers" <inua@CHARTER.NET>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 7:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Firewood
>
>
>> Magnesium - once lit - will burn under water. Heat is so intense and
>> chemical reaction so fierce that it splits the oxygen from the water
>> molecule for it's own use in combustion. Tough to fight a fire like that
>> with water. CO2 extinguishers don't work very well either. The intensity
>> of the chemical reaction in the magnesium is such that it also splits
>> off the oxygen from the carbon in the CO2 and consumes it. Carbon is the
>> leftover byproduct of magnesium combustion and it makes a heck of a
>> carbon soot mess. The intensity of the cold of a discharging CO2
>> extinguisher might chill the magnesium sufficiently to reduce and then
>> snuff the flame, but I would not count on it. I can't say I have ever
>> seen a magnesium fire extinguished successfully- it only went out when
>> it burned itself out.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> John Rodgers
>> 88 GL Driver
>>
>>
>> ROBERT DONALDS wrote:
>>
>>> I machine the bug cases so I have magnesium flakes that collect over
>>> time
>>> one night I took a large hand full out into the ally and lit it on
>>> fire not
>>> very impressive until I kicked it with my boot it then lighted up the
>>> ally
>>> like daylight and then some funny what a little sturring will do
>>> water will not put this out
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bill Collins" <wb6otg@INTREX.NET>
>>> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 9:00 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Firewood
>>>
>>>
>>>> >Wood is nice, but I highly recommend burning an engine case (ala
>>>>
>>>>> Burning Van 06).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just make sure no one throws water on it! Someone did that the last
>>>> time
>>>> they burned one at Everybus. (I think that's part of the reason it
>>>> was the
>>>> LAST time)
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
| 
