Date:         Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:26:05 -0700
Reply-To:     Keith Hughes <keithahughes@QWEST.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Keith Hughes <keithahughes@QWEST.NET>
Subject:      Re: Brake Problem maybe resolved?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Tim,

>Date:    Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:14:44 -0500
>From:    Tim Kasher <sade75@EARTHLINK.NET>
>Subject: Brake Problem maybe resolved?
>
>OK I posted just a bit ago about a brake issue (the main problem is that
>the pedal was going to the floor...even when pumping).....unfortunately I
>had a leaking right cylinder in the rear....so I had my mechanic change the
>2 rear cylinders and shoes in both rear brakes.
>
>Now the pedal still goes to the floor but when I pump it it does feel very
>good and pedal does not go to floor.
>
>
When you say "pump it",  do you mean more than once?  *IF* it's a matter
of not properly adjusting the rear brakes, the pedal *may* go to the
floor on the first press, but should be high and firm on the second (as
long as they are rapid presses - i.e. not allowing time in between for
the shoes to return and pump the fluid back out of the wheel cylinders).
  If it takes multiple 'pumps', it's likely not just adjustment.

>So how do I fix the pedal going to the floor with just regular brekaing (I
>cant obvioulsy pump it all the time)
>
You don't  - unless you're into gambling with your life!  Yes the rear
brakes will self-adjust, but only on *backing up* and stopping.  IF he
assembled them correctly, and IF the self adjusters are working (i.e.
the springs are good, the adjuster was cleaned and lubed, etc.).

>Should the mechanoc flushed all
>fluids
>
Not necessarily.  Good practice, but not necessarily *common* practice.

> and make sure no air was in the lines?
>
Absolutely!  Too basic to even argue about.  And not just the rears
either.  Since you were leaking fluid, any competent mechanic would
assume the possibility of fluid getting low and air getting sucked in
the master cylinder.  He would automatically bleed all wheels to make
sure.  We're talking about 5 minutes here, seriously.

>  He is a great mechanic but
>
>
You need to adjust your definition of "great", and "mechanic"....seriously.

>is was quitting time....I sat and watched the 3 hour job.
>
>
It's quitting time, and you're pretty sure that intermittent miss was
cured, so OK you send the customer on his way, I can buy that.  Not good
business practice, but real world.  You *NEVER* send a customer home
with a vehicle that is unsafe.  And that's where you are Tim, no
question about it.

>Maybe the front brakes are bad?  Ideas?
>
>
Maybe...but that's not causing your problem.  No matter how bad the
fronts are, they are self adjusting in a rather foolproof way, and will
not cause the pedal to go to the floor.

>Thanks so much I hope this isnt to confusing.
>
>PS I test drove it when he was doen and said I still had the pedal to the
>floor problem and he said give it a few days.
>
>
Tim, this is just sheer incompetence on his part.  Plain and simple.

First off, check your fluid level.  If it's low, add one more reason why
your mechanic is incompetent.  If it's OK, then that's one possible
problem eliminated.  If you have OK fluid level, there are a limited
number of things that can cause your symptoms.  They are:

1.  Rear brakes out of ajustment - as stated previously, if you need to
pump many times to get pedal, this is unlikely to be the cause, although
it can be a contributor.  IF, however, he put the rear brakes back on
with the adjuster fully collapsed, then this could be the problem
(although with new shoes, this is still unlikely).  If this is the case,
you should be able to tell by pumping until the brake pedal is high and
hard (if not hard, but spongy, you have air) and holding it.  It should
remain high and firm as long as you keep pressure on it (if it creeps,
see #3).  Release for a half-second and press again quickly.  Pedal
should be hard, but a little lower.  It should drop a little lower on
each subsequent repetition (you allow a half second for the shoes to
*partially* return, pumping out some of the fluid from the wheel cylinders).

2.  Air in the lines.  Bleeding is a *necessity* when changing wheel
cylinders or calipers, and it sounds like your guy just blew it.  Get a
friend and bleed the system yourself to make sure - it'll only take 10
or 20 minutes.  Use the following procedural steps - in the order listed:
       a.  Check/Fill the fluid reservoir.
       b.  Open the bleeder screw on the passenger side rear wheel cylinder.
       c.  Press the pedal slowly all the way to the floor and *HOLD IT
THERE*.  Do NOT pump.
       d.  When fluid quits flowing from the bleeder screw, close it
securely.
       e.  Release the brake pedal.
       f.   Repeat a through e until you get a solid stream from the
bleeder, with no air bubbles in it, then secure the bleeder tightly.
       g.  Repeat a through f for the other rear wheel.
       h.   Repeat a through f for the front wheels.
If you have no air in the rears or the fronts, then you'll need to
adjust the shoes to make sure that's not it.  If you get air, and you
can't get rid of it (i.e. continuously foamy fluid), it's likely the
master cylinder, or seals between the fluid reservoir and the master
cylinder.

3.  Bad master cylinder.  Harder to diagnose, with a wider range of
possible symptoms (although IME yours is seldom one of them).  Once the
air is out of the system, and the rear shoes are adjusted correctly, if
you have the same issue, the the master has to be the culprit.

All that said, you need to find another mechanic, 'cause this dude is
gambling with your life here - no BS, no hyperbole, just fact.  You
don't always have time to pump brakes to avoid an accident, and a
competent mechanic will just never let a customer leave in a death trap
unless it's clearly their decision, and the mechanic has clearly (and in
writing on the service order if they don't want to lose their ass)
communicated that the vehicle is unsafe to drive.   Bleed the thing
yourself (95%+ probability that's the problem), then go back and tell
your mechanic you fixed it, and how, and that you want a refund on the
labor.

Keith Hughes