Date:         Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:54:30 -0700
Reply-To:     Rich Bennington <rich.bennington@CHARTER.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Rich Bennington <rich.bennington@CHARTER.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ebay CV "kit"....is it any good?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sorry, all, I couldn't resist butting in here, having real experience with
outsourcing.



Date:    Tue, 4 Apr 2006 16:58:00 -0700

From:    BenT Syncro <syncro@GMAIL.COM>

Subject: Re: Ebay CV "kit"....is it any good?



>Don,



>This is what Ron said:



>"This is probably a thinly veiled way of saying that they are Chinese made.

>Be very, very cautious about using Chinese made parts on your Vanagon.
Ther=

>e

>are some decent Chinese made auto parts, but so far they are the exception

>rather than the rule.  The majority (so far) are lousy, and nowhere near

>German quality."



I believe this to be true.  As Japan, Korea, and even Taiwan have better
manufacturing reputations than China, one must be suspicious when someone
uses "Asian".  China now seems to be THE Asian location for VW replacement
part outsourcing.  (I'm not including ignition parts, here, like NGK plugs,
etc.)  I believe the statistics would confirm that.



In terms of "exception vs. the rule", both my business experiences
outsourcing electronics parts in China for use in high reliability
applications and my personal experiences with China-made VW parts would
support that.



>> I drive a 65 Triumph, restored and maintained with parts from a

>> Pennsylvania firm called The Roadster Factory. They commission repro

>> parts from around the world including China and Taiwan. Their

>> experience was, sometimes it takes a few tries to get it right,

>> functionally and cosmetically. Seems like a similar situation with

>> Vanagon parts and specialist suppliers.



>So what? That does not make it right to label something you haven't

>even seen yet.



I believe the line was "be cautious".  I buy Chinese made parts.  They are
often the most cost effective.  But in high reliability applications, and
where a lot of consequence (R&R cost, impact, safety) is involved, I want
statistical evidence, additional testing, or at least enough anecdotal
evidence to give me confidence before using the part.  It's not a matter of
not being Politically Correct, it's a protection thing.  Insurance companies
know, for example, that drivers under 21 have more accidents than those over
30.  Where I used to work, we had statistical evidence that electronics
parts manufactured in China were more likely to fail than those made in the
U.S., by a pretty good margin.  Some Chinese vendors were better than
others.



I have only anecdotal evidence that VW replacement parts made in China are
more likely to fail than German and US parts, but it begins to approach
statistical significance, given the number of people who complain.  On the
flip side, it's also a bit like comparing apples and oranges, when Chinese
made parts are typically less expensive than the German or US parts.



>> Heck, there was a line from a film that I think was quoted on this

>> list about electronics in the Space Station.  "Russian electronics,

>> American electronics, Taiwanese components."  Open your computer and

>> see where all the components are being made.    Time and

>> experience.... Time and the willingness to invest in new

>> infrastructure are on China's side.



>I don't need to open my computer to know where it's made at. I know it

>works and the nationality of the assemblers don't matter to me. Since

>it's an IBM Thinkpad, I can only assume it's spent sometime in China.

>Works great for me. Should I be saying it works so well that some

>parts must not be made in China? Or maybe I was one of the lucky ones.

>It's made in China and works!



First off, I'm guessing it's more likely Taiwan (Quanta), not China.
Several Taiwanese manufacturers (Compal, Quanta) have progressed so far they
are designing, building, testing and shipping complete turnkey notebooks for
companies like HP, Gateway, and IBM.  (Let's not get into Taiwan is China,
please. Manufacturing and engineering maturity is different, IMHO.) IBM,
like the company I worked for, may actually get some parts made in mainland
China.  The profit they make from lower manufacturing costs on the Chinese
mainland may justify the additional investment qualifying and/or testing a
particular vendor.  I don't know how well many VW aftermarket companies do
this, however, which is KEY to this discussion.  I do know that we spent so
much engineering time qualifying some components made by several Chinese
vendors and dealing with warranty returns that the savings didn't make
economic (or customer satisfaction) sense for us.  In other applications
with other vendors, it apparently has.  It's not an all or nothing thing.
But on balance, it couldn't be clearer that overall Chinese manufacturing
quality is below the norm.



Rich