Date:         Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:24:07 -0700
Reply-To:     Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Subject:      Re: missing the point
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Actually I grew up on a farm in East Tennessee. We managed to get high yields without any 'petrol based crap' other than what went into the tractor- we had to, it was what we lived on. We used crop rotation, insect cultivation/management, manure, composting/mulching- all kinds of things that commercial growers don't bother with due to their perception of expediency- not efficiency, expediency. In our case, like most of our neighbors, we just couldn't afford to use that chemical crap when the other was there to be had essentially free with a little hard work and some know-how.
What you're talking about doesn't sound like 'pure' agriculture, it sounds like commercial agriculture, the worst kind. Maybe you don't know how the 'small' guy gets it done. We did have the advantage of access to the work of the Agricultural College at UT, who were free with their information and active in the community. They were getting these closed-cycle organic systems down to a science (pardon the irony/pun) better than thirty years ago, so I can imagine where they've taken it by now.
They're working on organisms that yield hydrogen, methane or alcohol as by-products of their metabolic processes. They've got this enzyme that breaks down previously unusable cellulose (straw, corn stalks/cobs, sawdust). You keep talking about more use of oil and I'm talking about utilizing the plant waste from the growing process for which the given amount of oil was already used. Furthermore, if you do create the closed-loop farm/refinery setup that I mentioned, you phase the oil right out of it. How do you think it was done before tractors? Right, horses, oxen or whatever that were fed with the products and by-products of the farm. You get your farm machinery burning the ethanol you create (or whatever fuel) you've closed the loop and excluded the petroleum- the tractor as a team of horses. That alone would cut petroleum usage and free up considerable financial resources for the farmer, as well as possibly providing him with a second source of income.

If we need a miracle, it would be that energy production is finally freed from the influence of macro money. I don't see how that's gonna happen on a large scale anytime soon, but it will be necessary. There already are, and have been, all kinds of technologies in existence that an individual family can use to localize their energy production and wean themselves from the unnecessary massive energy infrastructure. The technology is just getting better, it's a matter of stopping the suppression of it and getting it into common use. Could you imagine if every house built in the future was required by law to have solar panels, fuel cells, grey water systems, etc? 

BTW, here's some 'wisdom' from some of your fellow cynics : )

http://www.permanent.com/quotes.htm

Cya,
Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brian Tipsword 
  To: refisher@MCHSI.COM 
  Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 10:05 AM
  Subject: missing the point


  Hi Robert,

  I have to ask, you ever been on or around a farm?  Almost all of the chemicals used are produced or derived from oil (or both).

  Growing more of anything is just displacing petro use ~ whether its fertilizer or unleaded it gets used to produce an inferior energy carrier.  

  It takes 4-6 gallons of ethanol to equate to one of gasoline in the scope of things, so to me that isn't a viable solution to this problem.

  If we could make this this stuff in quantity without having to rely on high tech farming methods (all that petro based crap) I'd be more inclined to agree with what you've posted.  Unfortunately the ground has been beaten to hell over years of poor farming practices (I live in the Willamette Valley of Oregon ~ pure agriculture) and it won't yield anything without a good soaking with all the artificial stuff.

  What we need is a miracle.

  Brian the cynic :-)