Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:12:22 -0400
Reply-To: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: The Thing About Shop Time (Long But Good)
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F9017E668FFFD9F5EB5B9AC7BC0@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I agree with what Bruce said and wanted to add my two cents as a
mechanic that specializes in Vanagons. I don't go by book time. I have
usually done the job many times and know what my actual time doing it
is. So I give the customers an estimate based on my experience of what
the time will be if I don't run into any major snags. Usually if I run
into a minor snag and it takes an hour or two longer I'll stick to my
estimate to cut the customer a break because my ultimate goal is to make
sure their van is running well and safe and to also make them happy.
Sometimes people complain that my estimate of time is much higher than
book time that someone has quoted to them over the phone. However this
person has probably never done this job so they are just quoting from a
book. This could be why most mechanics don't like to work on Vanagons
since the book says it takes something like 5 hours to replace the head
gaskets on a Vanagon. It takes me more like 10-15 hours, however I know
that the exhaust studs could break off, case is going to be pitted and
need to be repaired and that the tops of the cylinders are going to need
to be cleaned out, etc. I take my time and that is why my head jobs
never come back and the other shops do head jobs over and over and say
"Oh, those waterboxers are just junk."
One point I wanted to bring out was drawing the line. As Bruce said
these are older vehicles now. Where do you draw the line? Where do you
stop looking for problems? I have customers bring their vans here all
of the time and want me to replace the engine or transmission or water
pump, etc. They say, "Check the van out, see if there is anything else
it needs and let me know." Where do you stop? I see original coolant
hoses, but they look good. I see plastic coolant components that look
fine. However these parts are over 15 years old. What looks good on
the outside could be the popping apart next week. It can be tricky, but
I try to strike a balance. If I feel a customer is saying, "Check it
out and let me know." but really means, "I want this done but I'm not
going to spend any more than I have to." then I look it over, but I
don't go down every trail, and kick every bush on the way by. You
can't. It would move the van out of the realm of reasonable ownership
for that person and that is what they are looking for in that van.
Another customer who feels that reliability is the ultimate goal, and is
willing to spend the money, yes I will go down all the trails and kick
every bush and chase every rabbit that jumps out at me, because that is
what they want.
My point is, you should think about your philosophy of Vanagon
ownership. Most people are not one extreme or the other. They are
somewhere in the middle between absolute reliability (new cars don't
have this) and cost of ownership. I try to walk that tightrope for them
every day.
Thankfully, it usually works out so that they are happy and I am happy.
I am blessed to deal with Vanagon owners. They are some of the nicest
people you can deal with in the mechanical world. I appreciate your
attention. I hope my ramblings help you understand what goes on inside
the mind of your mechanic.
Sincerely,
Ken Wilford
John 3:16
www.vanagain.com
Bruce Nadig wrote:
> I only caught a bit of the thread about shop time for CV service. There
> seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding about "shop time". Shop
> time is
> more complicated than it appears on the surface.
>
> The most important thing the consumer needs to be concerned with is what
> procedures are being performed and what the total price is for those
> services.
>
> Different mechanics charge different labor rates. This is done for a
> variety
> of reasons (different overhead costs, different labor costs in different
> regions, different profit margins, etc.). A shop can charge an
> artificially
> low shop time to do a particular job but recover that lost money by
> having a
> higher than average hourly labor charge. The opposite is true. A shop can
> have a low hourly rate and a higher than normal shop time for a
> particular
> job. It is just games. What is important is the final price to the
> consumer.
>
> In addition, it is important to understand where shop times come from.
> Dealerships and many independent shops will charge shop time as
> published by
> the vehicle manufacturer. Is this a good standard to refer to? Not
> necessarily. Manufacturers publish shop times so that there is a
> standard to
> be used for warranty work when the vehicles are still relatively new.
>
> Of course the manufacturer has incentive to publish a time that might be
> shorter than is actually necessary to do the job. Why? Because this
> dictates
> how much the manufacturer will have to pay the dealership to perform
> warranty work. If a manufacturer is generous in their shop times it will
> cost them money in the long run.
>
> Some manufacturers are better about publishing accurate times than others
> are. When I worked in the dealership world, Porsche and BMW published
> rates
> were usually pretty good (although putting a new rear window in a Porsche
> 993 Cabriolet would eat any mechanic's lunch). Saab, on the other
> hand, was
> another story. Saab Master Techs are almost impossible to find. Why?
> No one
> is interested in working on a make of car where the manufacturer, and
> eventually the independents, short you on every job. You can't make a
> living.
>
> True, there are others that publish shop time guides, such as Mitchell.
> Often times, however, you will find that those times are wildly
> calculated.
> It seems that the folks that put those books together will either closely
> follow (copy?) the manufacturer's published rates, have an inexperienced
> mechanic performing the work (thus times will be very generous for a tech
> that knows his job), or have a mechanic that seems to know some
> shortcut to
> the job that nobody else knows (thus a tech can never come close to
> matching
> the published time).
>
> Published shop rates are also intended to reflect how long it will
> take an
> experienced mechanic (that means one that has done this particular job
> several times and has all the specialized tools) to perform a specific
> job
> on a brand new vehicle with no other problems. The importance of this
> factor
> can't be overlooked. A new vehicle is much easier to work on than a
> vehicle
> with dirt, rusted or frozen fasteners, modifications, or other running
> problems that make diagnosis, repair, and/or adjustment take much longer
> than published. Remember that the newest Vanagons on the road are 15
> years
> old. Even the well maintained ones have frozen fasteners and other
> issues.
>
> To compensate for the above factors (short time from manufacturers, older
> vehicles, poorly maintained vehicles, etc.) many (dare I say most) shops
> will use published time as a guide, but not gospel. Here is an example. I
> worked at a dealership for a respected European car manufacturer. For all
> warranty work we were allowed to charge the manufacturer their published
> rates. For customer pay work on newer vehicles the customer was charged
> something like 1.25 times the manufacturer's rate. For older cars it was
> usually 1.5 times published rate. The cars that were real messes were
> charged something closer to 2.0 time published rate (that is if the
> dealership didn't just charge actual time, or turn the car away all
> together).
>
> The vast majority of shops are not out to cheat the consumer. Most of the
> shops I am familiar with (both dealerships and independent shops) will
> say
> that their times are, "... based upon published rates." That is true. The
> published rate is used as a basis to determine the actual charge. It is
> usually done in a fair and uniform manner.
>
> So, like I said at the beginning, what the consumer needs to pay
> attention
> to is the actual cost to perform a specific job. They shouldn't be so
> concerned as to how that price was calculated. In addition, the consumer
> should factor in the service level that the shop offers the customer
> (convenient hours, courtesy transportation, loaner cars, special
> consideration for regular customers, availability of service
> appointments,
> etc.), as well as the skill level of the mechanics.
>
> I'm not defending anyone's business practices here. I'm just trying to
> let
> people know how it is out there. Remember, don't get mired down in the
> details of how the price of the job is calculated. Just make sure you
> find a
> mechanic that does quality work, uses quality parts, and charges a fair
> price. When comparing prices, make sure you compare apples to apples. If
> comparing apples to oranges, make sure you know what the trade-offs are.
>
> One last word. Never nickel and dime your mechanic. Don't beat him
> down on
> price. In the end, it isn't worth it to you. Find a qualified mechanic
> that
> you can work with for the long term.
>
> My 2¢.
>
> Cheers,
> Bruce
> motorbruce
> motorbruce@hotmail.com
>
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