Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:40:23 -0700
Reply-To: Aristotle Sagan <killer.jupiter@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Aristotle Sagan <killer.jupiter@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ethics & CarFax
In-Reply-To: <397.1f2ede3.3181abac@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Seeing as it's SOP here in California for a dealer to give you the Carfax
report when you are thinking about buying a car, I think the argument gets a
little thin.
I don't think it's OK for people to be trolling for Carfax users on the
list, but then again, I don't live in your shoes. Some valid points are made
here. Personally, I think Carfax's business model sucks. You should be able
to go to the website, pay 4 or 5 bucks with paypal, type in a VIN and be
outa there with the info you need. We are in year 11 or so of the Web.
tim in san jose
On 4/26/06, Jeff Oxroad <Oxroad@aol.com> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/26/2006 12:00:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> motorbruce@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
>
> I have been meaning to start this thread for a very long time.
>
>
>
> I applaud the query into the ethics of almost any practice. It reminds me
> a
> little of the old America. You know the one where people were held
> accountable, where lying wasn't OK just because one apologized or more
> recently just
> because one pretends they didn't lie even in light of overwhelming
> evidence to
> the contrary. The America where we didn't honor criminals rights so
> excessively that we put bars on the windows of our own homes and car
> alarms in from
> the factory. A time when we weren't bamboozled into thinking that ATMs
> are
> taking jobs Americans don't want. And a time when weren't
> being bamboozled into
> believing the illegal immigrants in the home depot parking lot offering
> to do
> carpentry, plumbing, dry wall installation, painting and the like all for
> a
> substandard wage are also jobs Americans don't want.
>
> Here's what I think about the most recent thread. VW, probably by some
> corporate edict or not, makes their staff so often unhelpful and
> incompetent that
> stealing ETKA from them is fine. Also, this in light of the fact
> that they
> don't make ETKA available to the public, and then their staff often is
> unhelpful and/or downright incompetent, their service departments are
> snake oil
> salesmen, and none if this is what we signed on for when we bought the
> vehicle
> from the showroom entitles us to break parts of our ethical contract them.
>
> All this because they have broken their contract with us. We had an
> expectation of buying a vehicle they would be willing to service and offer
> us help in
> the maintenance, and they have left us high and dry. If VW were at all
> interested in repairing our vehicles for a fair price and properly we
> would have
> no need for ETKA on our own. If their parts department were willing to
> help
> us...well, different story, maybe. (Some folks at VW of course are
> extremely
> helpful. Some of us have encountered them. But since we don't always have
> the
> benefit of dealing with a "good" dealership we are often stuck in the mire
> of
> their unwillingness to help, so we are forced, I would argue, to help
> ourselves--if you'll pardon the pun.)
>
> As for Carfax, by the letter of their contract, you could not show the
> carfax report to your spouse, sister, the person selling the car, the
> person
> you're selling the car to, and so on. I think their contract is an
> effort to keep
> pirating on a major scale to a minimum. I had Carfax for a time and
> probably
> ran 50 reports. Some were cars I was looking to buy, some where just cars
> I
> saw on the street and was curious, some were friends cars. At the time I
> never
> thought about the contract and probably had not read it fully. I didn't
> think I was doing anything illegal.
>
> I realize ignorance of the law is not an excuse. And remember I like the
> old
> America were people were held accountable. But I don't think the
> spirit of
> the law is being broken if I show the carfax to the person interested in
> buying my car, or if my friend in a car club asks me to check out a
> car. The fact
> is I'm interested in running the VIN on almost any car. That's why I paid
> for
> the carfax service. So when someone in my club says, can you run a VIN on
> this 75 Gremlin, I'd say sure let's check it out. Technically the law
> would be
> broken not when I ran the report, but when I shared the info. with my
> friend.
>
> Similarly I'm guessing republishing classified ads to the list is probably
> technically in many cases a copyright infringement. So then would be
> quoting an
> article from a newspaper or Road and Track about the new Beetle on the
> list. I'm guessing quoting Bentley manual is a copyright infringement.
>
> But I would say since we are a modern day club of sorts, as opposed to a
> revenue generating business, we possibly are not violating the spirit of
> the c
> ontract with carfax. I think it's OK to show the carfax report to my
> spouse or
> to my friend or person interesting in buying my car. I think Carfax
> probably
> thinks that's OK as well.
>
> Having said that Carfax may have a different point of view, obviously I
> can't speak for them. But in the real world who would buy Carfax if you
> couldn't
> show it to at least one other person.
>
> "I'd like to offer you less than the asking price for your car because
> carfax shows it was in an accident before you purchased it."
>
> "I'm not aware of that. Let me see."
>
> "I'm sorry sir. According to my contract with Carfax I can't show you
> this.
> You'll have to take me at my word."
>
> Best,
> Jeff
> 83.5 Westy
> LA,CA
>
--
Where ever you are, there you be. Unless you're driving my van, in which
case, you ain't got there yet.
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