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Date:         Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:40:12 -0700
Reply-To:     Mike Miller <mwmiller@CWNET.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Mike Miller <mwmiller@CWNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: tolls (was RE: I-90 Freeway help)
In-Reply-To:  <C0C7DEA5.EEF7%mwmiller@cwnet.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

The final paragraph should have been written "we shouldn't pay any road taxes"

Sorry very long night for the last 2-3 months..

Mike

On 6/28/06 7:22 AM, "Mike Miller" <mwmiller@CWNET.COM> wrote:

> Just a note on trucks. > > They don't pay anything like the amount they should based on road wear. > > Very simplified. Big trucks cause virtually all non weather wear on roads. > Under 18,000 pounds there is no wear. And the wear goes up much faster than > a linear function over 18000 lbs. > > For example when the Feds put a nickel a gallon tax on fuel the truckers > didn't fight it because they got an increase in maximum load from 72,000 lbs > to 80,000 lbs. Virtually doubled the wear on the interstates. > > At least that's what research I dug up some years ago showed. > > YMMV. > > Our vans don't cause any damage, except to us so we should pay any road > taxes. As a matter of fact they should pay us. We're probably doing negative > damage, that is the van driving repairs the roads. > > Been a long night. > > Mike > > > On 6/28/06 2:39 AM, "Joy Hecht" <jhecht@ALUM.MIT.EDU> wrote: > >> Roads are a major mechanism for shipping goods. Trucks pay tolls - lots >> more than 2-axle vehicles. They pass on the costs to the purchasers of >> their products. Ditto for any services brought to your house, etc. That's >> how the person in the iron lung pays for roads, also old folks who don't >> drive, New Yorkers who take public transit and don't own cars, etc. >> >> The tolls ensure that the individual user, who gets far more out of the road >> than the purchaser of shipped goods, pays far more. >> >> The road costs (or better yet the gas taxes) should also capture the costs >> imposed on everyone through the many environmental harms that come from >> driving. Unfortunately they don't, they are too low for that. >> >> There's also another logic for heavier road or gas taxes, aside from >> recapturing the direct and environmental costs of driving. That's that we >> should use the tax system to create incentives for "goods" and against >> "bads." That argues, say, for greatly increasing taxes on things causing >> environmental harm, like driving, and using the revenue to reduce taxes on >> things we want, like income. So the idea would be a revenue-neutral (i.e. >> the government gets the same total amount of money, not more) change in >> taxes, where lots more is imposed on driving and lots less on income. That >> would lead to less pollution, and put more cash in our pockets. Not such a >> bad idea. But we'd end up using less of our cash on driving, since it would >> be more expensive. Shorter trips, but more spiffing up your van (Vanagon >> content alert! :-), or eating out, or whatever you like to buy. >> >> >> Joy >> >> p.s. I'll promise, I'll _try_ not to post on this any more! But it's so >> hard to resist, being an environmental economist for a living... >> >> >> **************************************************************** >> Joy Hecht >> and Matilda, 1989 Burgundy Vanagon >> >> For musings about life and the vanadventures: >> http://www.joyhecht.net >> >> **************************************************************** >> >> :::-----Original Message----- >> :::From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf >> :::Of Robert Fisher >> :::Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 11:30 PM >> :::To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >> :::Subject: Re: tolls (was RE: I-90 Freeway help) >> ::: >> :::--snip-- >> :::> Actually tolls are a reasonably fair way to pay for roads >> :::> - those who use them pay for them. As opposed to using general revenue >> :::or >> :::> something, in which case people who don't use them still have to pay. >> :::--snip-- >> ::: >> :::I've always had an issue with this idea- everybody 'uses' the roads. I >> :::don't >> :::care if you're stuck in an iron lung, you still use the roads in the >> :::sense >> :::that all of those things and people that fill your needs and wants use >> :::the >> :::roads. They used the roads to get your groceries to the store, they used >> :::the >> :::roads to get them from the store to your house, they use the roads to get >> :::your nurses and techs to you, they use the roads to get you to the >> :::hospital >> :::when you need it, they used the roads to build your house, they used the >> :::roads to bring your iron lung to your house... you get the point. >> ::: >> :::In that sense it's inequitable that drivers are primarily burdened with >> :::the >> :::costs of maintaining roads via tolls and fuel taxes. I'd bet there are >> :::more >> :::non-drivers than most of us would guess there are, particularly as the >> :::population ages, and there are all kinds of activities in which the end >> :::user >> :::benefits from the use of the roads whether they were involved with the >> :::driving for that particular thing or not, and regardless of whether they >> :::drive otherwise- one that comes to mind is all of the kids that live on >> :::or >> :::near campus while in college and primarily walk to everything three- >> :::quarters >> :::of the year. There's a whole microcosm of infrequent or non-drivers whose >> :::activities are of course supported by others driving. Of course for >> :::commercial driving the costs of being on the road are factored into the >> :::costs of goods, so there is some downward distribution, but there's still >> :::going to be a gap there for various reasons. >> ::: >> :::I was reading an article about how states are bracing for the loss of >> :::revenue due to loss of fuel taxes from alternative energy/fuel vehicles, >> :::reduction in driving habits due to high costs of fuel (which apparently >> :::hasn't happened yet) and a whole list of other related issues. One of the >> :::proposals that many of the states were considering was dropping the fuel >> :::tax >> :::altogether and rolling it into the sales tax, the idea being that it >> :::would >> :::more fairly spread the burden around and still guarantee revenue flow. >> :::They >> :::seemed to figure it would equal out overall in economic terms after the >> :::'sticker shock' effect was absorbed because the rather substantial fuel >> :::tax >> :::would be gone. It seemed a little optimistic to me to assume that Joe's >> :::Trucking was automatically going to drop their rates because they were >> :::suddenly 'saving' the fifteen-cents-per-gallon from the repealed state >> :::fuel >> :::taxes, but who knows. >> ::: >> :::This kind of goes along with the argument about 'free' radio and TV... >> :::which >> :::are not only not free, but are in fact very much the opposite of free- >> :::but >> :::that's a gripe for another day. >> ::: >> :::Cya, >> :::Robert >> >> > >


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