Date:         Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:45:40 -0700
Reply-To:     Jeffrey Schwaia <jeff@VANAGONPARTS.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Jeffrey Schwaia <jeff@VANAGONPARTS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Propane fired airconditioning
In-Reply-To:  <02b901c6b0fb$f72fe970$657ba8c0@MAIN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

That's a pretty funny story.  A good example of Darwinism in action.

Now... show me a documented story of someone getting hurt in a vehicle using
hydrocarbon based refrigerant that wasn't a setup.

Cheers,

Jeff


-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM]On Behalf
Of Robert Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 2:39 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Propane fired airconditioning


There's a major difference there in that the propane in the cooking systems
is on the downside of a regulator that is outside of the vehicle that keeps
it at a very low pressure, as opposed to in an A/C system where it can be
expelled into the passenger cabin all at once under high pressure, and since
it is mixed with atomized oil to boot it is potentially a very explosive
mixture.

The pressures in an MVAC system are actually at their highest 30-45 minutes
after the engine is shut off due to the system continuing to absorb heat
from the engine compartment without having any way to dispel it.

So you could have a scenario where you drive your Westy to the campground
with the A/C on, you decide to cook your lunch or make some coffee or
whatever shortly after you arrive and the A/C system blows a leak during its
highest pressure period into the cabin where it explodes on contact with the
stove flame.

It may not be necessarily likely but it is possible, and for those of you
that insist it isn't possible or think that reports of hydrocarbon A/C
explosions are all staged stunts, you should read about this particular
staged stunt:

http://www.vasa.org.au/pdf/memberlibrary/hydrocarbons/maclaine-cross.pdf

It may not affect your thinking about hydrocarbon refrigerants but you have
to admit it's pretty damn ironic. Additionally, if you spend some time
looking you can find numerous news accounts etc. about hydrocarbon
refrigerants causing fires and explosions in cars as well as a few
legitimate studies that have demonstrated the potential for the same and the
effects. This business of the companies that produce this stuff insisting
that they know of no instances of fires or explosions is just the official
corporate denial of big energy companies.

I've done more reading on this than I really wanted to since I first saw
this debate a couple of years ago and I've come to the conclusion that all
the major categories of refrigerants are dangerous in their own way. It
seems to me that, like the fuel line issue, the best defense against a
disaster is excellent preparedness and maintenance.

I don't personally care if anybody chooses to use hydrocarbons; it's legal
here in Cali and for all I know everybody on my block has it. My issue with
this discussion is that it is irresponsible for people continue to advocate
the use of hydrocarbons not only without any warning that there might be
safety and particularly legal issues, but with the insistence that the stuff
is perfectly safe. It isn't.

I agree with Bange that these things are a matter of picking your trade-offs
and living with them- I just think people seeking information should be as
well informed as possible as to what those trade-offs really are,
particularly when they're getting that information here.

Cya,
Robert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Oomkes" <roomkes@ZONNET.NL>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: Propane fired airconditioning


> The original discussion was: is it safe to use propane to power an
> airconditioner.
>
> My answer would be: just as safe as it is to use propane to power a
> fridge.
> Or to power a stove.
>
> How many of us have first hand experience of exploding Westies due to
> fridge
> problems (as opposed to burned out Westies due to gasoline problems)?
>
> Robin (in LPG-friendly Holland)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geo & Kathleen Hahn" <ahwahnee@CYBERTRAILS.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Propane fired airconditioning
>
>
>> obeechi@runbox.com wrote:
>>
>>>The word 'propane' is no where in this text... neither is the word
>>>'gas'... maybe what really happened is that someone spontaneously
>>>combusted and this combustion led to adjacent persons spontaneously
>>>combusting. People were going off like popcorn, and this report serves
>>>only as a vehicle for covering up the truth. And now you're using it as a
>>>scare tactic to keep people from cooling themselves.. How much money are
>>>you getting for turning us into raisins?
>>>
>>
>> It was a description of the aftermath for purposes of learning from a
>> disaster.  The cause was a propane tank at a popcorn machine under the
>> stands.  81 dead, hundreds injured... the building looked like the
>> Beirut convention center.  There are lots of dangerous things around the
>> home, garage and even our vans.  No need to be scared, just aware.
>>
>> Geo H
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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