Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 02:06:45 -0400
Reply-To: robert shawn feller <carboncow@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: robert shawn feller <carboncow@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: 15" Wheels/Tires
In-Reply-To: <06b501c6b6bc$046b0ff0$0a0ba8c0@RON>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
wow...you guys just cannot quit fighting reality ver theory...
first looks drives quite a bit of larger rim/tire dicussion to, which
I didn't mention before. gowesty.com has a great writeup (as you know)
on the benefits of 15" rims...and they were a defining reason why I
upgraded.
I speak from real world experience not theory. I don't deny your
expertise but there is NO QUESTION going from 14" to 15" removed 50%
of the cross wind stablity for me. Many on here have said for years
and that is why I followed their lead. It was correct. So therorize
all you want, I feel safe at 70mph now...I didnt' feel safe at 60
before. Maybe that properly loaded rated tire just sucked. If I would
do it again I would have gone down one size in tire but the price was
right.
Additionally I have heard the comments about hydro and snow before
to... we know the tire tread has more to do then anything. Again wider
tires on Ohio snow has always done better for me, going and stopping.
There are many examples where 4x4 travel does do better with thinner
and higher profile tires in mud and serious off-roading but not for me
and daily travel. the 14" I had just sunk and dug in...the weight per
surface area just didn't cut it.
My tires are 101 rated at 44psi and the ride is far better then the
14" again. Argue the theory all you want...I speak from what I feel in
my ass.
Garage and speedo are not an issue for me, again the benfits out weigh
the losses. If the speed and issue one can ship it off for gear
reduction therapy.
The only think I can say you are wrong on is your tire price comment
as my tires were $60 a piece at tire rack, contientals but I forget
the model right now.
I have to ask since you and many have been her for so long, how many
times have you heard someone blowing "car" tires on their vans? I
understand the concern and believe properly load rated tires to be
important but the desire of you guys to constantly reiterate this
comment is painful. I think list members should worry more about the
fuel injection lines then tires from what I've read in the last two
years and that is based on "real world" not theory!
On 8/3/06, The Bus Depot <vanagon@busdepot.com> wrote:
> > > Even though like many others I run 15" wheels, I'm not sure
> > > I would agree that "a 15" wheel is the preferred size"
>
> > Larry is in the know about tires and rims but I have to add
> > that I noticed NO difference or loss of power going from a
> > crappy 14" up to 15" with 225/70R15.
> >
> > Plus:
> > Better cross wind stability
> > Better ride with larger tires
> > Better road grip against hydroplaning and snow slip
> > Lower RPM = happy engine
> >
> > Cons:
> > More money
>
>
> I don't see how this can be.
>
> First of all, all things being equal, it is a fact that a THINNER tire will
> do better in terms of hydroplaning and snow slip. Therefore a 185R14 is
> optimal for this purpose (even better than the 205/70R14 commonly used on
> 14" alloy wheels, which is why I use 185R14's on my alloys). Secondly, the
> tires you are using are 2" taller than stock, so this would tend to WORSEN
> cross wind stability (again all things being equal), throw off your speedo
> by 7 percent (which is a fairly sizeable margin), and on a Westy, possibly
> make it too tall to fit in some home and parking garages. On the other hand,
> you do gain ground clearance (which can be a major plus if you have a Syncro
> and go off-roading) and improve dry-road grip by virtue of the wider tire
> (at the expense of rain/snow performance).
>
> You can eliminate the last three drawbacks (speedo reading, garage fit, and
> cross-road stability issues) by choosing a 15" tire that maintains the same
> height as the stock 14" tire. We sell one for this purpose, which is
> commonly used on Eurovans; the Vredestein Comtract 205/65R15. Not owning a
> Syncro myself (hence no need for increased ground clearance), if I were to
> go to 15" wheels that's what I'd use. However there are some drawbacks to
> this solution as well, which I will go into later.
>
> As for my next couple of points, let me first remind Vanagon owners that
> standard-load passenger car tires are UNSAFE for Vanagon use (as per both
> VW's own engineers and U.S government safety standards) whether in a 14" or
> 15" size. Please read my write-up at http://busdepot.com/details/tires.jsp
> before arguing this point. If you are going to respond with anecdotal
> evidence such as "I have used car tires on my Vanagon and never had a
> problem," then your argument is akin to saying "I smoke a pack a day and
> haven't had a problem" or "I never wear my seatbelt and haven't had a
> problem." Take the risk if you choose, but at least admit that you are
> taking a risk. So, that being said...
>
> Regarding ride comfort, this is subjective of course. If you are using
> inadequately-rated tires (which have insufficient sidewall rigidity), you
> may indeed notice a cushier ride, because your sidewall if flexing too much.
> You could have gotten the same effect by simply buying taller 14" tires that
> had too much sidewall flex. This may feel cushy, but it can be dangerous
> under accident-avoidance conditions (again, see the above link). If a
> cushier ride is what you're after, there are ways to accomplish this that do
> not involve buying tires with dangerously weak sidewalls. The simplest is to
> use a softer riding shock. An oil damped shock like a Boge (or better yet, a
> Koni, where you can actually adjust the ride to taste) will give you a
> smoother ride than a typical gas-filled shock like a KYB or Bilstein,
> without potentially risking your life.
>
> If your tires ARE properly rated, but taller, you still may feel a softer
> (subjectively "better" to some people) ride, because there is more rubber
> sidewall to absorb the bumps. This becomes a judgement call. Do you feel
> that the advantages (smoother ride, increased ground clearance) outweigh the
> drawbacks (speedo error, garage fitment, wind resistance)? If so, as long as
> the tires are properly rated, go for it. However you could also accomplish
> the same thing without springing for bigger rims, by simply buying a
> properly-rated but taller 14" tire, such as our Hankook 195R14 or Vredestein
> 205R14.
>
> If you choose to increase to 15" rims but want to maintain stock ride height
> to avoid the aforementioned trade-offs, this means you must use a
> lower-profile tire to offset the taller wheel. All things being equal this
> will actually make your ride less smooth. Even a sidewall-reinforced tire
> has more flex than a metal rim. So if you are increasing the height of the
> wheel and correspondingly decreasing the height of the rubber, you will get
> a bit of a stiffer ride. As for whether such a change is better or worse,
> again this is subjective. Some people like a more taut ride, others like
> more cushion. Also a lower-profile tire is slightly more prone to blowouts.
>
>
> As for cost, assuming you are using the correctly load rated tires for your
> Vanagon either way, 15" tires are MUCH more expensive than 14" ones. A set
> of Hankook 185R14's will set you back about $75 each. A comparably rated OEM
> or name-brand 15" tire will cost at least 50% more per tire. And that
> doesn't include the cost of replacing the wheels.
>
> So that's my take on it. IMO, the only reasons to go with 15" rims is if you
> want to increase ground clearance, or love the look and don't mind spending
> some bucks to get it. (And I say this as someone who sells 15" wheels.) Some
> may disagree with my analysis (after all I'm reopening the "tire thread"
> Pandora's box:-), but my position is backed by hard science, not anecdotal
> evidence, and I stand by it. Flame on! :-)
>
> - Ron Salmon
> The Bus Depot, Inc.
> www.busdepot.com
> (215) 234-VWVW
>
> _____________________________________________
> Toll-Free for Orders by PART # : 1-866-BUS-DEPOT
>
--
shawn feller
ohio
www.carboncow.com
www.carboncow.net
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