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Date:         Thu, 3 Aug 2006 03:00:00 -0700
Reply-To:     Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Subject:      Re: 15" Wheels/Tires
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=response

Lugging the WBX is one of the worst things you can do to it. Reducing the RPMs on the flats, when the engine is generally working with the least effort anyway (at least at a reasonable speed) can in no way make up for the additional stress and damage you can incur making the engine work even harder on inclines by putting larger diameter tires on the van. You can get as good a ride and stability as can be had with a stock diameter tire, which is a win-win, so why disadvantage an already underpowered engine? People my like the looks of those larger rims, but if it brings a premature death to the engine they'll be admiring those wheels from the curb while waiting to rebuild or convert their engine. Seems to me a larger rim and shorter sidewalled tire is a reasonable trade-off if the ride is good, and you can do other things to accomplish that. I guess if your van mostly lives in the flatlands it may not matter. As for boats, I've never a fully laden boat trying to chug up the side of a mountain.

Cya, Robert

----- Original Message ----- From: "robert shawn feller" <carboncow@GMAIL.COM> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 11:36 PM Subject: Re: 15" Wheels/Tires

> Didn't think you were arguing as much as scaring new people and their > questions half to death with over analysis. Its amazing how new people > get on here and ask questions and the dozen or so regulars that know > almost to much jump on these questions with over analysis that is > often mind blowing. I've never seen anything like it on any other > board in all my years! Let's face most put larger rims/tires on for > better looks...but the hardcores here want to argue for the worst > tire/rim combo on a vehicle in history, purists! > > Yes your theory is correct...but doesn't mean it applies in all cases. > I have always valued your opinions and factual knowledge but I'm not > crazy when I tell those who inquire that my taller tires on 15" rims > have improved my ride quality and windstablity. Additionally I have > noted for years my Saabs running wider tires make my jetta look stupid > in the snow. > > Your last comments perplex me...vanagon engines rarely give > out...isn't a failure for any reason a failure based on a good > dependable macro design...most people judge a engines durability on > the miles between rebuilds and catastrophic failure and the vanagon > engines have marginal at best history from what I've read around these > parts. Many are getting up there and years with great miles on it but > we often forget how large a percentage of these engines were rebuilt > before 100K because of leaky heads and such. I think most is due to an > underpowered engine if I had to guess with high operating temps...(but > that is just a theory) > > I just don't know how you can say running lower RPM (7%) wouldn't > possibly increase life. You comment that high rpm thus temperature has > negative repercussions...why wouldn't lower temps help longevity? > Obviously only to the point as you point out driving 40" tall tires > would have taxing effects due to gearing and optimal RPM ranges. > > My theory of lowering RPMs a couple hundred or was also supported > based on a professional I respect. My boat mechanic told me years ago > to fight the urge to cruise at recommend RPM on my twin 351 engines in > our cruiser, he said the recommended RPMs were to high...to always > back off a couple hundred RPM. He has been doing this 40 years and > says RPM conservation not only increase fuel savings but engine life > in most marine gas v8 engines. Now one could argue his "theory" dosn't > apply to vanagons but maybe it does. Again its just a theory like > yours and Rons that may look good on generalized paper...but be > different in the real world. > > I have to add with the selling of this Vanagon I will be down to only > one Vw in the stable. My days with Vw are number for two reasons. > First recent Vw for us have had quality issues that I felt were not > warranted for the money we spent including a 1999 Jetta (lemon law > almost kicked in), 2001 jetta and a 1997 Golf. More importantly we > wouldn't even be discussing this need if Vw didn't insist on putting > underpowered engines that insist on cruising at 4K rpm for daily > driving. Everyone one from our 2.0 Jetta engine, 2.5L (audi) in the > Eurovan and the 2.1L in the vanagon just rev to high for my tastes, > suck to much gas and just annoy me on the freeway. I'm sure this has > quite a bit to do with different driving styles in europe vs north > ameria but I can tell you my saabs and bmw have always had plenty of > power at non-annoying RPMs at cruising speed and are just as rev-y for > a smooth power band...all getting 250-300K per engine...now their > transmissions are another story... > > Shawn > > On 8/3/06, Dennis Haynes <dhaynes@optonline.net> wrote: >> I really wasn't arguing. Just pointing out some details based on >> experiences >> and knowledge. There are folks out there that think tall gearing and 30" >> tires are the way to go to get engine RPMs down without understanding >> that >> the design is there for a reason. >> >> I had a '79 Scirocco with a 5 speed. In 4th gear, it barley broke the 100 >> mph barrier, in 5th gear, ~90 was the limit. Obviously, the engine had to >> spin faster to overcome the wind resistance at those speeds. The Vanagon >> has >> that wind resistance problem at much lower speeds. >> >> I am one of the folks that reported oil temp concerns at higher RPM's. >> 4,200-4,500 RPM under a load and the right conditions can cause oil temp >> run >> away with the resultant pressure loss. Even with external oil coolers. >> >> So your tire size will allow you to cruise a little faster on fairly >> level >> roads. As I said, you are at the upper limit, but still reasonable. Go to >> 225/80 and try it. You will see the point I am trying to make. >> >> Since Vanagon engines rarely wear out, (they die from some failure, >> usually >> a fluid) a 10% reduction in engine speed will not give a 10% increase in >> life, or a 10% increase in fuel economy. >> >> Dennis >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf >> Of >> robert shawn feller >> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 11:50 PM >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >> Subject: Re: 15" Wheels/Tires >> >> there's an argument for everything on this board! >> >> My boss has a great say..."analysis to paralysis"... >> >> One old time expert on this board scream tests prove anything over 4K >> rpm for extended time causes high oil temp and excessive >> wear...everyone on this board agrees that high oil temps are far more >> deadly on this engine then most. >> >> you argue 3700rpm creates to much torque and stress on an engine! We >> are not talking about a 2.1L trying to get up a mountain at 2000rpm at >> 65mph but 3700 on a flat highway at 70mph for 12 hours a day. Seems >> again that the good out weights the bad. >> >> lastly for climbing mountains downshifting as invented...i'm quit sure >> improper gear/rpm selection by most consumers far outweighs the >> 250-300 at 70mph my larger tires bring me! >> >> >> >> On 8/2/06, Dennis Haynes <dhaynes@optonline.net> wrote: >> > Getting the RPMs down is not necessarily advantageous. There are >> > limits. >> > While the perception is lower RPMs = better fuel economy and longer >> > engine >> > life, this is not always true. The fuel consumption is mostly >> > determined >> by >> > the "work" actually being performed. Lower RPM for the same work >> > requires >> > more torque which means more stress. Overdone, and you get higher peak >> flame >> > temperatures which make more NOx and at some point can give those >> > melted >> > pistons and burned valves. This really becomes evident with a tired >> > engine >> > or running heavy loads in the mountains. >> > >> > In my opinion, a 26.5 to 27" tire is really the limit for the stock >> > engine >> > and gearing. The 225/70-15 is a little high at ~27.5". This size does >> > give >> > an excellent load rating though without the need for special tires >> although >> > I recommend the tire is rated for 44 psi inflation to maintain the >> handling >> > requirements. (Rear higher inflation than front to induce under steer). >> > >> > For optimal handling, I strongly recommend the 225/60-16. This is >> > ~26.5" >> > tire, 98 load index, and short sidewall that still has enough room for >> > impact absorption. This size is also available reinforced and was used >> > by >> VW >> > on the latest Eurovans. This tire size also works well with automatics. >> > >> > Dennis >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf >> > Of >> > robert shawn feller >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 10:54 PM >> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >> > Subject: Re: 15" Wheels/Tires >> > >> > Larry is in the know about tires and rims but I have to add that I >> > noticed NO difference or loss of power going from a crappy 14" up to >> > 15" with 225/70R15. The plus far out way any percieved power issues >> > with the animic 2.1L. Plus oversized tires get the RPM down...which >> > never hurts a 2.1L. I'm guessing my combo added 100lbs or rolling >> > mass, but I cannot tell. Maybe I got a "good" engine! >> > >> > I may be a size to big for clearence though... >> > >> > Plus: >> > Better cross wind stability >> > Better ride with larger tires >> > Better road grip against hydroplaning and snow slip >> > Lower RPM = happy engine >> > >> > Cons: >> > More money >> > >> > Shawn >> > >> > On 8/2/06, Larry Chase <roadguy@roadhaus.com> wrote: >> > > Jeff, >> > > >> > > Even though like many others I run 15" wheels, I'm not sure I would >> agree >> > > that "a 15" wheel is the preferred size" >> > > >> > > All depends on one's objectives. >> > > >> > > If you have a stock 2.1L Waterboxer and plan to stay that way ... >> > > IMHO, >> > > there is a lot to be said for staying with a 14" wheel. A bit easier >> > > on >> an >> > > already taxed underpowered engine. Stills lots of good properly load >> rated >> > > 14" tires available. >> > > >> > > If you plan to do an engine conversion (TDI, Subie, Ztec etc)or just >> want >> > to >> > > fill the wheel wells a bit more ... 15" is a good choice. >> > > >> > > >> > > good road, >> > > good adventure, >> > > good life, >> > > >> > > larry chase >> > > www.roadhaus.com >> > > soon to be roadhaus.org >> > > >> > > - - - >> > > >> > > Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:34:21 -0400 >> > > From: Jeff Lincoln <magikvw@GMAIL.COM> >> > > Subject: 15" Wheels/Tires >> > > >> > > Ok so with all this wheel and tire talk recently I got to thinking - >> > > it >> > > seems clear that a 15" wheel is the preferred size for a Vanagon and >> > should >> > > have been the stock size. Now I like the idea of more stability and >> better >> > > handling by upsizing in this area however I am not a fancy alloy >> > > wheel >> > kind >> > > of guy - I kinda like my Vanagon "ugly" like it was meant to be - so >> > > are >> > > there 15" rims that can be purchased that I can still put my >> > > "classic" >> VW >> > > chrome dome hub caps on? I know sort of a dumb question but I figure >> > someone >> > > here will know. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Thanks, >> > > >> > > Jeff >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > shawn feller >> > ohio >> > www.carboncow.com >> > www.carboncow.net >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> shawn feller >> ohio >> www.carboncow.com >> www.carboncow.net >> >> > > > -- > shawn feller > ohio > www.carboncow.com > www.carboncow.net


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