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Date:         Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:46:16 -0400
Reply-To:     Bostig Eng <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Bostig Eng <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Subject:      Gas Engine Limitations,
              Crazy Bostig guys WAS: Supercharged Westy Vanagon
Comments: To: David Marshall <mailinglist@FASTFORWARD.CA>
In-Reply-To:  <46245.204.239.103.250.1156188283.squirrel@hasenwerk.homeip.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Well of course it is marketing, just like your post, we are trying to make a living doing what we like to do same as you. But note that I didn't post the link, nor did I request it to be posted... lot's of folks have been enjoying the video so I don't see the problem. One *key* point David, and one that we both share I think, is that we aren't "smoke and mirrors" marketers... we've never taken that approach, we're technical and a little silly at times, but always on point and always up front and back up everything we say, there is no hard selling here.

You're certainly right about torque which is why we are using the eaton positive displacement blower for that fat torque curve, horsepower often clouds judgement.. although the trend seems to be that auto consumers are getting wiser about the more technical aspects of their cars and what they need to ask about and look for. It's kinda like comparing legs... the torque would be the absolute strength of the legs.. the length of the legs is more like the horsepower... without strong leg muscles you get nowhere fast, but with strong really short legs you also tend to get nowhere fast and your capabilities are limited. What you want is strong legs with enough length to make them really useful... hence the eaton charged zetec, muscle and long legs... a little calculus homework, it would be interesting to compare the area under a TDI torque curve with the area under the charged zetec torque curve.

Anyhow, there are a few things in your post that I want to address. Sure there are indeed limitations with gas engines in vanagons, the leading limitation is the cost of gas.. something that isn't going to be getting better in the long term, but there is a possible answer to that. HOWEVER, there are also deep limitations imposed by a switch to diesel, at least in the more populated areas of the US. You can forget about diesel conversion in CA, MA, or any other state/county that smogs based on VIN. You could of course hunt down a diesel VIN and re-register the van, however doing so is illegal in the US, which tends to be a show stopper for lots of folks. Furthermore, while the diesels possess excellent torque down low, the narrow power band necessitates longer gearing, so you have to re-gear or better yet find a 6 speed or 5 speed + full overdrive unit which doesn't really exist for the vanagons, long haul trucks have 16+ speeds for a reason. Also on the emissions front there is the matter of diesel vs. gas, there is no comparison as to which is cleaner at the tailpipe (although if you run biodiesel there are great additional arguments for the net benefit), much of this will improve for the diesels in the next 2-4 years, and we'll be ready once the EPA mandates come into effect and OEMs start bringing European diesels into the US. However on the bio-fuel front there is also legislation in the US to ramp ethanol production to dramatically increased levels over the next 10 years (there is a $600 mil plant under construction in NY right now I believe), so the gas engines stand to benefit from this expanding power source in the short term, especially with cellulosic ethanol just within reach now. On a side note take a look at the google-trends for ethanol vs. biodiesel: http://www.google.com/trends?q=ethanol%2C+biodiesel

I'd run a diesel conversion if:

a) I could do it legally somehow b) I could get a plentiful sub 3L DIVVT engine for under $1000

I think I'd be happy if just one of the above was taken care of... As far as adding a supercharger or turbo to a gas engine being "crazy". It is neither crazy nor a bad idea intrinsically; it all depends on execution and system design. Just as some would say it is demonstrably crazy to install a 350 ft/lb TDI torque monster and pop your own tranny.. but I don't think so, I love it, innovation is considered crazy all the time. I think the VW 1.4L TSI engineers would laugh pretty hard at the "crazy" statement since they strapped BOTH a turbo and an eaton supercharger like ours to a gas engine! And indeed I don't think Ford would have bought the Jackson racing supercharger kit to add to their parts lineup, offer a warranty on it, AND not void the factory warranty when it is added.. unless of course they're also crazy, in which case call me REALLY crazy because there are even more head shakers and VW fundamentalists offended at the idea of there being value in putting a zetec in a vanagon to begin with... but poo-poo opinions don't matter to us, it's the smiles and results that count.

On the points of support and "safety in numbers" and parts availability, we have the best support out there, ask any one of our customers how available and responsive we are... I've never seen a post asking how to get ahold of Bostig Engineering... I didn't spend all that time on a support and development website, ticket system and forums because we aren't interested in having the best support out there. And again we leverage technology to enable us. Safety in numbers: there are 3.5 MILLION zetec engines worldwide, which speaks to parts availability too, let alone the off the shelf mandate for kit parts we adopted long ago in the design requirements. I seem to recall an exchange a year or so ago where we found that a sub 10k mile complete zetec engine can be had for less than the price of a TDI waterpump. Speaking of waterpumps how long does it take to change one on a TDI? You should check out that video of ours too... not as good as the supercharged van but pretty cool.

I don't mind your pointing out the merits of diesel and bringing attention to torque numbers(go look at our dyno while you're at it, additionally use the factory ford dyno sheet in conjunction with our dyno for the off idle numbers) there is much to be said.. but don't forget that there are sound, , substantial, and deliberate reasons why we are developing what we're developing, and a full explanation is only a phone call, email, forum post, or support ticket away, I'm with you on the diesel thing, but it isn't all there yet. We'll be joining you as soon as it satisfies our design goals, and we'll be the *only* kids on the block to be offering an upgrade path of any kind to existing customers. Stay "tuned" we always do ;)

Your crazy Bostig guy,

Jim

-----Original Message----- From: David Marshall [mailto:mailinglist@FASTFORWARD.CA] Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 3:25 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: Supercharged Westy Vanagon

Malcolm and the list It's all marketing! Horse Power sells cars and engine conversions - period! All the time I get people telling me they would never put a TDI into their Vanagon as it is a step down in power - why have a 90hp TDI when the original motor is 95hp. FORGET horsepower, it is torque that you are looking for. Of course, I know Malcolm knows this already... but for the rest of you it is all about torque.

Torque is rotational force, or the force necessary to keep your wheels rolling. Power is work over time, so having high horse power will make your van accelerate quickly, but if it has low torque, you not be able to maintain your speed going up a steep hill. This is why the old TiiCo engines are more zippy as they have circa 120hp, but the torque was circa 125ft.lbs which is only a few more than a standard 2.1L - on the flat they can accelerate more quickly than a wasserboxer, but real hill climbing they were marginally better. A stock TDI with 155 ft.lbs will go up a hill much faster than a stock vanagon even though it only has 90hp.

Also, for everyone, if you are going to go above 250ft.lbs of torque you better do some modification to your transmission. Both 3rd and 4th gears have to be changed to handle the extra torque and I know this from personal experience. My R-TDI powered Syncro Westfalia is on it's second transmission. The first one (newly rebuilt too) lasted 400km before I broke it. I figured I would cheap out a little and get 4th only changed as this is where I normally drive at. Well, going up a slow dirt road 10% grade at 60km/h in 3rd I killed my transmission with a small blip of the accelerator - zip - no more teeth on that cog! Torque of this engine is easily in excess of 350 ft.lbs at 2000 rpm and stock 3rd and 4th gears can not handle that much power. Once I get V2.0 of the software in there and I am in Vancouver next, I will get the engine dynoed to see how much power there actually is there. VNT-20 and PP764 nozzles with 1.7 bar of boost does make a crap load of power. A lot of guys on the TDIClub with this setup get over 200hp and 360ft.lbs of torque on this setup! Fuel economy is 9.5L/100km with is a little better than 30mpg.

Sorry, but a gasoline engine has it's limits in a Vanagon - ~25 mpg is about the best you are going to get and unless you turbo it or superchage it or get a really big one you will have not enough torque to make a conversion worth while in my opinion. Adding an aftermarket turbo or supercharge is crazy. If you want turbo power and a gasoline engine start with a Subaru or VW Turbo engine - safety in numbers - easy access to tech support and replacement parts is your friend.

David Marshall

On Mon, August 21, 2006 11:19, Malcolm Stebbins wrote: >> Below is an update on the Zetec kit with the supercharger upgrade: > > 1) On your Bostig web page please put the RPMs for the 148 Horsepower and > the 141 ft/lb torque. > Is this at 2,000 RPMs or 4,000 RPMs ???? I'd like to know. > > 2) I sure hope that the tranny can handle this power, I'm following what > you guys are doing, but > I'm to chicken to let my van be an early patient. m > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com >


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