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Date:         Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:29:15 -0700
Reply-To:     David Marshall <mailinglist@FASTFORWARD.CA>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         David Marshall <mailinglist@FASTFORWARD.CA>
Organization: Fast Forward Automotive Inc.
Subject:      Re: Gas Engine Limitations,
              Crazy Bostig guys WAS: Supercharged Westy Vanagon
Comments: To: Bostig Eng <syncrolist@bostig.com>
In-Reply-To:  <009701c6c573$9ca8fff0$0401a8c0@beast>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

My turn! ;-)

First off... I want to officially announce that I am getting OUT of the business and will be shutting the doors at Fast Forward at the end of my fiscal year - gasp yes it's true but there is more to life than money and stuffing parts in boxes. If I looked at what I made over the past 9 years I would have seriously have been much better off working at McDonald's flipping burgers. My physical and family health has suffered working two jobs and on average more than 90h a week (I work as a Novell Administrator at the School District during the day) and I enjoy the hobby and the challenge of making things work in a VW rather than making a buck. For those who are thinking of getting into the, or, a business, I recommend that you take a good hard look at what you are doing now before you make the leap. There is far too much gov't bullshit to deal with and really the world is a "go big or go home" thing now. Running a one-man show is quite a feat and I quit! I will continue to be on the web and on the list, just taking the Volkswagen and Diesel aspect to a different and more open level to really get the word out there on how to make this a better planet to live on. I will be taking on one or two "friends" a year if I find your project interesting enough. Hey - I quit - I am allowed to say that now! :-) Perhaps in a few years things might be different, but for now this is the way it will be at my Hasenwerkstadt.

Jim, I like your leggy explanation of power and torque - I might just use that myself.

My point of safety in numbers is that you don't want to stray too far from the pack if you are not your own mechanic and your own warranty. My R-TDI engine is a prime example of that. The VNT-20 turbo isn't available in North America as it was never installed on a vehicle in North America by the factory so getting a replacement in under 48h is basically impossible. If someone spends a lot of time in the back country or in Mexico or some other remote place where if they break down they could be stranded and have to potentially abandon the vehicle if they can't get a replacement part in a few days by means of the local shipping methods. A VNT-20 turbo isn't for them nor is the supercharger kit that you are selling. If you have a 2nd vehicle and can afford to be down, then by all means toys like this are great. This is what I mean by safety in numbers - there are lots of these engines out there so replacement parts are easy to get - the farther from the factory spec you go the harder it is to get parts. By the way, if my turbo dies, I can still get home and have done so once over 500km - it was slow but I made it. Basically there is nothing on my R-TDI that will strand me more than a stock TDI would and if it came down to it, a stock turbo / downpipe would work fine in place of the VNT-20, same goes for the ECU if it ever decided to pack it in. Also, as well as parts there are people too - http://www.tdiclub.com is a great place to get all the support for stock and not so stock TDI engines.

As far as a power band goes, a stock TDI will pull hard from about 1800 to 3800 rpm which is really quite adequate for the Vanagon and actually has more range than the wasserboxer - all be it shifted down one octave. I recommend to everyone who is doing a TDI conversion to get 4th gear changed out to at least 0.77 if you are running stock tires and as low as 0.70 if you like to go fast. My Syncro Westie does 2600 rpm at 100km/h and I have taken it up to 145km/h with more in reserve, a Vanagon just isn't meant to go that fast - at least not a high top Westie with 31" tall tires. Passing those red-neck 4x4s up hill is quite fun though! If one wants to spend a couple hundred dollars you can get your ECU software updated and the TDI will pull hard well into the 4000rpm range. Redline of my R-TDI is 5400 RPM and it really pulls over 3500 rpm way more than any nominally aspirated I4 gasoline engine - Ford / Subaru or VW - OK. the R-TDI isn't a stock engine, but it has the exact same specs as the late 90s I4s that VW Motorsport used. The race T'regs in the Paris-Dakar have the same engine only one more cylinder.

On the emission point a TDI is very clean, especially if you retain all the emission equipment when you do the conversion. The CO output is drastically less than a gasoline engine which goes a long way to saving this planet. The only thing that is higher than a gasoline engine is the NOx output and when Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel is everywhere (September) this will be as low or lower than a gasoline engine. Notice I have not used the word BioDiesel yet!

TDI water pumps - $60 for the ALH / BEW pumps - see http://www.dieselgeek.com to reference the pricing. I have never seen a failure and at that price when you change your timing belt you should change your water pump - that would be once every 100.000km and two more bolts when you are doing the timing belt.

I'm not the only kid on the block with TDI conversions and soon, there will be even more TDI conversions out there as I make a more "open source" way for people to install them. Personal satisfaction is my payment - mind you if someone throws a few freebees or dollars my way I won't complain either.

David Marshall

Fast Forward Automotive Inc. Quesnel BC Canada

Internet http://www.fastforward.ca Email sales@fastforward.ca

- Classic water cooled Volkswagen engine conversions - Electrical harness fabrication and customization

Due to the large quantity of email we receive, please include previous email correspondence when replying. This will allow us to read the full dialogue in one message so that we may provide you a quicker and more accurate response.

-----Original Message----- From: Bostig Eng [mailto:syncrolist@bostig.com] Sent: August 21, 2006 15:46 To: 'David Marshall'; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Gas Engine Limitations, Crazy Bostig guys WAS: Supercharged Westy Vanagon

Well of course it is marketing, just like your post, we are trying to make a living doing what we like to do same as you. But note that I didn't post the link, nor did I request it to be posted... lot's of folks have been enjoying the video so I don't see the problem. One *key* point David, and one that we both share I think, is that we aren't "smoke and mirrors" marketers... we've never taken that approach, we're technical and a little silly at times, but always on point and always up front and back up everything we say, there is no hard selling here.

You're certainly right about torque which is why we are using the eaton positive displacement blower for that fat torque curve, horsepower often clouds judgement.. although the trend seems to be that auto consumers are getting wiser about the more technical aspects of their cars and what they need to ask about and look for. It's kinda like comparing legs... the torque would be the absolute strength of the legs.. the length of the legs is more like the horsepower... without strong leg muscles you get nowhere fast, but with strong really short legs you also tend to get nowhere fast and your capabilities are limited. What you want is strong legs with enough length to make them really useful... hence the eaton charged zetec, muscle and long legs... a little calculus homework, it would be interesting to compare the area under a TDI torque curve with the area under the charged zetec torque curve.

Anyhow, there are a few things in your post that I want to address. Sure there are indeed limitations with gas engines in vanagons, the leading limitation is the cost of gas.. something that isn't going to be getting better in the long term, but there is a possible answer to that. HOWEVER, there are also deep limitations imposed by a switch to diesel, at least in the more populated areas of the US. You can forget about diesel conversion in CA, MA, or any other state/county that smogs based on VIN. You could of course hunt down a diesel VIN and re-register the van, however doing so is illegal in the US, which tends to be a show stopper for lots of folks. Furthermore, while the diesels possess excellent torque down low, the narrow power band necessitates longer gearing, so you have to re-gear or better yet find a 6 speed or 5 speed + full overdrive unit which doesn't really exist for the vanagons, long haul trucks have 16+ speeds for a reason. Also on the emissions front there is the matter of diesel vs. gas, there is no comparison as to which is cleaner at the tailpipe (although if you run biodiesel there are great additional arguments for the net benefit), much of this will improve for the diesels in the next 2-4 years, and we'll be ready once the EPA mandates come into effect and OEMs start bringing European diesels into the US. However on the bio-fuel front there is also legislation in the US to ramp ethanol production to dramatically increased levels over the next 10 years (there is a $600 mil plant under construction in NY right now I believe), so the gas engines stand to benefit from this expanding power source in the short term, especially with cellulosic ethanol just within reach now. On a side note take a look at the google-trends for ethanol vs. biodiesel: http://www.google.com/trends?q=ethanol%2C+biodiesel

I'd run a diesel conversion if:

a) I could do it legally somehow b) I could get a plentiful sub 3L DIVVT engine for under $1000

I think I'd be happy if just one of the above was taken care of... As far as adding a supercharger or turbo to a gas engine being "crazy". It is neither crazy nor a bad idea intrinsically; it all depends on execution and system design. Just as some would say it is demonstrably crazy to install a 350 ft/lb TDI torque monster and pop your own tranny.. but I don't think so, I love it, innovation is considered crazy all the time. I think the VW 1.4L TSI engineers would laugh pretty hard at the "crazy" statement since they strapped BOTH a turbo and an eaton supercharger like ours to a gas engine! And indeed I don't think Ford would have bought the Jackson racing supercharger kit to add to their parts lineup, offer a warranty on it, AND not void the factory warranty when it is added.. unless of course they're also crazy, in which case call me REALLY crazy because there are even more head shakers and VW fundamentalists offended at the idea of there being value in putting a zetec in a vanagon to begin with... but poo-poo opinions don't matter to us, it's the smiles and results that count.

On the points of support and "safety in numbers" and parts availability, we have the best support out there, ask any one of our customers how available and responsive we are... I've never seen a post asking how to get ahold of Bostig Engineering... I didn't spend all that time on a support and development website, ticket system and forums because we aren't interested in having the best support out there. And again we leverage technology to enable us. Safety in numbers: there are 3.5 MILLION zetec engines worldwide, which speaks to parts availability too, let alone the off the shelf mandate for kit parts we adopted long ago in the design requirements. I seem to recall an exchange a year or so ago where we found that a sub 10k mile complete zetec engine can be had for less than the price of a TDI waterpump. Speaking of waterpumps how long does it take to change one on a TDI? You should check out that video of ours too... not as good as the supercharged van but pretty cool.

I don't mind your pointing out the merits of diesel and bringing attention to torque numbers(go look at our dyno while you're at it, additionally use the factory ford dyno sheet in conjunction with our dyno for the off idle numbers) there is much to be said.. but don't forget that there are sound, , substantial, and deliberate reasons why we are developing what we're developing, and a full explanation is only a phone call, email, forum post, or support ticket away, I'm with you on the diesel thing, but it isn't all there yet. We'll be joining you as soon as it satisfies our design goals, and we'll be the *only* kids on the block to be offering an upgrade path of any kind to existing customers. Stay "tuned" we always do ;)

Your crazy Bostig guy,

Jim

-----Original Message----- From: David Marshall [mailto:mailinglist@FASTFORWARD.CA] Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 3:25 PM To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM Subject: Re: Supercharged Westy Vanagon

Malcolm and the list It's all marketing! Horse Power sells cars and engine conversions - period! All the time I get people telling me they would never put a TDI into their Vanagon as it is a step down in power - why have a 90hp TDI when the original motor is 95hp. FORGET horsepower, it is torque that you are looking for. Of course, I know Malcolm knows this already... but for the rest of you it is all about torque.

Torque is rotational force, or the force necessary to keep your wheels rolling. Power is work over time, so having high horse power will make your van accelerate quickly, but if it has low torque, you not be able to maintain your speed going up a steep hill. This is why the old TiiCo engines are more zippy as they have circa 120hp, but the torque was circa 125ft.lbs which is only a few more than a standard 2.1L - on the flat they can accelerate more quickly than a wasserboxer, but real hill climbing they were marginally better. A stock TDI with 155 ft.lbs will go up a hill much faster than a stock vanagon even though it only has 90hp.

Also, for everyone, if you are going to go above 250ft.lbs of torque you better do some modification to your transmission. Both 3rd and 4th gears have to be changed to handle the extra torque and I know this from personal experience. My R-TDI powered Syncro Westfalia is on it's second transmission. The first one (newly rebuilt too) lasted 400km before I broke it. I figured I would cheap out a little and get 4th only changed as this is where I normally drive at. Well, going up a slow dirt road 10% grade at 60km/h in 3rd I killed my transmission with a small blip of the accelerator - zip - no more teeth on that cog! Torque of this engine is easily in excess of 350 ft.lbs at 2000 rpm and stock 3rd and 4th gears can not handle that much power. Once I get V2.0 of the software in there and I am in Vancouver next, I will get the engine dynoed to see how much power there actually is there. VNT-20 and PP764 nozzles with 1.7 bar of boost does make a crap load of power. A lot of guys on the TDIClub with this setup get over 200hp and 360ft.lbs of torque on this setup! Fuel economy is 9.5L/100km with is a little better than 30mpg.

Sorry, but a gasoline engine has it's limits in a Vanagon - ~25 mpg is about the best you are going to get and unless you turbo it or superchage it or get a really big one you will have not enough torque to make a conversion worth while in my opinion. Adding an aftermarket turbo or supercharge is crazy. If you want turbo power and a gasoline engine start with a Subaru or VW Turbo engine - safety in numbers - easy access to tech support and replacement parts is your friend.

David Marshall

On Mon, August 21, 2006 11:19, Malcolm Stebbins wrote: >> Below is an update on the Zetec kit with the supercharger upgrade: > > 1) On your Bostig web page please put the RPMs for the 148 Horsepower and > the 141 ft/lb torque. > Is this at 2,000 RPMs or 4,000 RPMs ???? I'd like to know. > > 2) I sure hope that the tranny can handle this power, I'm following what > you guys are doing, but > I'm to chicken to let my van be an early patient. m > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com >


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