Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:46:16 -0400
Reply-To: Bostig Eng <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Bostig Eng <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Subject: Gas Engine Limitations,
Crazy Bostig guys WAS: Supercharged Westy Vanagon
In-Reply-To: <46245.204.239.103.250.1156188283.squirrel@hasenwerk.homeip.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Well of course it is marketing, just like your post, we are trying to make a
living doing what we like to do same as you. But note that I didn't post the
link, nor did I request it to be posted... lot's of folks have been enjoying
the video so I don't see the problem. One *key* point David, and one that we
both share I think, is that we aren't "smoke and mirrors" marketers... we've
never taken that approach, we're technical and a little silly at times, but
always on point and always up front and back up everything we say, there is
no hard selling here.
You're certainly right about torque which is why we are using the eaton
positive displacement blower for that fat torque curve, horsepower often
clouds judgement.. although the trend seems to be that auto consumers are
getting wiser about the more technical aspects of their cars and what they
need to ask about and look for. It's kinda like comparing legs... the torque
would be the absolute strength of the legs.. the length of the legs is more
like the horsepower... without strong leg muscles you get nowhere fast, but
with strong really short legs you also tend to get nowhere fast and your
capabilities are limited. What you want is strong legs with enough length to
make them really useful... hence the eaton charged zetec, muscle and long
legs... a little calculus homework, it would be interesting to compare the
area under a TDI torque curve with the area under the charged zetec torque
curve.
Anyhow, there are a few things in your post that I want to address. Sure
there are indeed limitations with gas engines in vanagons, the leading
limitation is the cost of gas.. something that isn't going to be getting
better in the long term, but there is a possible answer to that. HOWEVER,
there are also deep limitations imposed by a switch to diesel, at least in
the more populated areas of the US. You can forget about diesel conversion
in CA, MA, or any other state/county that smogs based on VIN. You could of
course hunt down a diesel VIN and re-register the van, however doing so is
illegal in the US, which tends to be a show stopper for lots of folks.
Furthermore, while the diesels possess excellent torque down low, the narrow
power band necessitates longer gearing, so you have to re-gear or better yet
find a 6 speed or 5 speed + full overdrive unit which doesn't really exist
for the vanagons, long haul trucks have 16+ speeds for a reason. Also on the
emissions front there is the matter of diesel vs. gas, there is no
comparison as to which is cleaner at the tailpipe (although if you run
biodiesel there are great additional arguments for the net benefit), much of
this will improve for the diesels in the next 2-4 years, and we'll be ready
once the EPA mandates come into effect and OEMs start bringing European
diesels into the US. However on the bio-fuel front there is also legislation
in the US to ramp ethanol production to dramatically increased levels over
the next 10 years (there is a $600 mil plant under construction in NY right
now I believe), so the gas engines stand to benefit from this expanding
power source in the short term, especially with cellulosic ethanol just
within reach now. On a side note take a look at the google-trends for
ethanol vs. biodiesel:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=ethanol%2C+biodiesel
I'd run a diesel conversion if:
a) I could do it legally somehow
b) I could get a plentiful sub 3L DIVVT engine for under $1000
I think I'd be happy if just one of the above was taken care of...
As far as adding a supercharger or turbo to a gas engine being "crazy". It
is neither crazy nor a bad idea intrinsically; it all depends on execution
and system design. Just as some would say it is demonstrably crazy to
install a 350 ft/lb TDI torque monster and pop your own tranny.. but I don't
think so, I love it, innovation is considered crazy all the time. I think
the VW 1.4L TSI engineers would laugh pretty hard at the "crazy" statement
since they strapped BOTH a turbo and an eaton supercharger like ours to a
gas engine! And indeed I don't think Ford would have bought the Jackson
racing supercharger kit to add to their parts lineup, offer a warranty on
it, AND not void the factory warranty when it is added.. unless of course
they're also crazy, in which case call me REALLY crazy because there are
even more head shakers and VW fundamentalists offended at the idea of there
being value in putting a zetec in a vanagon to begin with... but poo-poo
opinions don't matter to us, it's the smiles and results that count.
On the points of support and "safety in numbers" and parts availability, we
have the best support out there, ask any one of our customers how available
and responsive we are... I've never seen a post asking how to get ahold of
Bostig Engineering... I didn't spend all that time on a support and
development website, ticket system and forums because we aren't interested
in having the best support out there. And again we leverage technology to
enable us. Safety in numbers: there are 3.5 MILLION zetec engines worldwide,
which speaks to parts availability too, let alone the off the shelf mandate
for kit parts we adopted long ago in the design requirements. I seem to
recall an exchange a year or so ago where we found that a sub 10k mile
complete zetec engine can be had for less than the price of a TDI waterpump.
Speaking of waterpumps how long does it take to change one on a TDI? You
should check out that video of ours too... not as good as the supercharged
van but pretty cool.
I don't mind your pointing out the merits of diesel and bringing attention
to torque numbers(go look at our dyno while you're at it, additionally use
the factory ford dyno sheet in conjunction with our dyno for the off idle
numbers) there is much to be said.. but don't forget that there are sound, ,
substantial, and deliberate reasons why we are developing what we're
developing, and a full explanation is only a phone call, email, forum post,
or support ticket away, I'm with you on the diesel thing, but it isn't all
there yet. We'll be joining you as soon as it satisfies our design goals,
and we'll be the *only* kids on the block to be offering an upgrade path of
any kind to existing customers. Stay "tuned" we always do ;)
Your crazy Bostig guy,
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: David Marshall [mailto:mailinglist@FASTFORWARD.CA]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 3:25 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Supercharged Westy Vanagon
Malcolm and the list
It's all marketing! Horse Power sells cars
and engine conversions - period! All the time I get people telling
me they would never put a TDI into their Vanagon as it is a step down in
power - why have a 90hp TDI when the original motor is 95hp. FORGET
horsepower, it is torque that you are looking for. Of course, I know
Malcolm knows this already... but for the rest of you it is all about
torque.
Torque is rotational force, or the force
necessary to keep your wheels rolling. Power is work over time, so
having high horse power will make your van accelerate quickly, but if it
has low torque, you not be able to maintain your speed going up a steep
hill. This is why the old TiiCo engines are more zippy as they have
circa 120hp, but the torque was circa 125ft.lbs which is only a few more
than a standard 2.1L - on the flat they can accelerate more quickly than a
wasserboxer, but real hill climbing they were marginally better. A
stock TDI with 155 ft.lbs will go up a hill much faster than a stock
vanagon even though it only has 90hp.
Also, for everyone, if
you are going to go above 250ft.lbs of torque you better do some
modification to your transmission. Both 3rd and 4th gears have to be
changed to handle the extra torque and I know this from personal
experience. My R-TDI powered Syncro Westfalia is on it's second
transmission. The first one (newly rebuilt too) lasted 400km before
I broke it. I figured I would cheap out a little and get 4th only
changed as this is where I normally drive at. Well, going up a slow
dirt road 10% grade at 60km/h in 3rd I killed my transmission with a small
blip of the accelerator - zip - no more teeth on that cog! Torque of
this engine is easily in excess of 350 ft.lbs at 2000 rpm and stock 3rd
and 4th gears can not handle that much power. Once I get V2.0 of the
software in there and I am in Vancouver next, I will get the engine dynoed
to see how much power there actually is there. VNT-20 and PP764
nozzles with 1.7 bar of boost does make a crap load of power. A lot
of guys on the TDIClub with this setup get over 200hp and 360ft.lbs of
torque on this setup! Fuel economy is 9.5L/100km with is a little
better than 30mpg.
Sorry, but a gasoline engine has it's limits
in a Vanagon - ~25 mpg is about the best you are going to get and
unless you turbo it or superchage it or get a really big one you will have
not enough torque to make a conversion worth while in my opinion.
Adding an aftermarket turbo or supercharge is crazy. If you
want turbo power and a gasoline engine start with a Subaru or VW Turbo
engine - safety in numbers - easy access to tech support and replacement
parts is your friend.
David Marshall
On Mon, August
21, 2006 11:19, Malcolm Stebbins wrote:
>> Below is an update
on the Zetec kit with the supercharger upgrade:
>
> 1) On
your Bostig web page please put the RPMs for the 148 Horsepower and
> the 141 ft/lb torque.
> Is this at 2,000 RPMs or 4,000 RPMs
???? I'd like to know.
>
> 2) I sure hope that the
tranny can handle this power, I'm following what
> you guys are
doing, but
> I'm to chicken to let my van be an early patient.
m
>
>
>
>
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