Date:         Thu, 7 Sep 2006 12:53:42 -0700
Reply-To:     Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Robert Fisher <refisher@MCHSI.COM>
Subject:      Re: a/c - Sorry
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
              reply-type=original

Don't try to keep topping off with R-12; it'll cost you a fortune and it's
damaging to the environment. It'll also eventually ruin whatever is left of
your equipment as it 'runs dry' over and over. You're losing oil along with
the refrigerant.

Try to get good recommendations for a couple more shops in your area and get
a second and third opinion. Then you can compare and get some idea of where
you really are with this.

There are different kinds of 'leaks'. Most leaks will be at a
joint/connection which is usually a matter of replacing an o-ring and
properly reconnecting. If there's a leak elsewhere out of a hose or the
compressor then you're probably in for a new part. AFAIK it's generally
cheaper to get a rebuilt compressor than it is to have yours overhauled. You
can have the hoses made if you can find somebody to do that locally, or you
can order them. If you can turn wrenches at all you can do the bulk of the
work yourself when it comes to replacing components if it's necessary.

If you're replacing the compressor and you're also looking at converting to
R-134a you can buy a compressor that will bolt in that is designed for
R-134a and avoid the pressure issues that converting an R-12 compressor will
entail.

If you can use your old compressor and you want to convert from R-12, then
legally you must convert to R-134a first. Then you can convert to whatever
as long as it's legal locally. Obviously there are ways around this but a
'legit' shop would probably not assist you in doing so, which leaves you on
your own or dealing with a shady shop.

It sounds like you need to start from square one, basically. Fix the leaks.
Determine if the compressor is viable. You'll need to flush the system and
replace the dryer before recharging regardless of what you use. Pay
particular attention to the condition of the condenser, and replace if
necessary (rusted/clogged).

If you have to replace the compressor, I'd suggest getting one made for
R-134a and going with that. You may want to replace the compressor anyway
due to its age so as not to have to do it next year or the year after and
wind up going through all this again. R-134a can leak out of R-12 hoses but
you may have to replace those anyway.

You're probably in for some serious expense no matter what, but you can
greatly reduce that by doing what work you can do yourself. You can actually
learn to do the whole job, as many on the list have done, and not only save
yourself a bundle now and in the future but you'll have some new toys to
boot. If you're up for it I would go for doing the whole thing myself
(speaking as someone who has done this). You basically have all winter to
work it out at this point.

There's been a lot of info about this in the last three years. Search the
archives for that time period and you will get all the info you need. Read
Dennis Hayne's posts, he's added some important small details that the rest
of us tend to leave out. Keep notes as you read and contact those that have
posted to the A/C threads with your questions. This seems to be one of the
main areas where people blow huge amounts of cash for very little return, so
it's definitely worth doing your homework.

Good luck,
Robert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Grisanti" <bike2vcu@YAHOO.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: a/c - Sorry


>I am following this thread with interest because the
> new-to-us '87 Westy with A/C was diagnosed during the
> pre-buy check with a working compressor that probably
> only needed a charge (R-12, the original system is
> unconverted).
>
> After the purchase I took it to an A/C shop I'd done
> business with and they were to charge and test.  Came
> back saying that the compressor leaks, several
> fittings leak and even some hoses leak.  No cool, and
> an outrageous estimate for repair/conversion.  Now I'm
> wondering how much I should trust them.
>
> I'm tempted to try another shop for just an R-12
> charge to see how long that lasts, but if that is
> unsatisfactory will probably eventually convert.
>
> As I understand it from this thread, I can use Freeze
> 12 to try to get cooling.  Can I actually do this or
> must I change fittings?  Or must I rely solely on
> paying shops to recharge periodically with R-12 until
> the conversion?
>
> Thanks!
> Stephen
>
> --- mad madeline <mac10wv@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
>> Sorry Bob.. I missed the point that you had already
>> converted it.  MM
>>
>> John Rodgers <inua@CHARTER.NET> wrote:  trooz wrote:
>> > I was told that one cannot simply add 134-A to a
>> cooling system that's only
>> > blowing about 57 degrees. They said the system had
>> to be totally evacuated
>> > and then filled with a precise amount. Anyone know
>> about that? I've always
>> > had Freon added in the past (it's been R-12 until
>> a few months ago when I
>> > had the system converted to 134-A). Is this
>> something peculiar to 134-A or
>> > just peculiar to this shop? They're talking close
>> to a couple hundred
>> > dollars to do it.
>> >
>> > Bob Trousdale
>> > '90 Westy
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> I think you are getting a snow job from the shop. If
>> they have the
>> proper guages they can determine exactly how much
>> needs to be added
>> without going through all that.
>>
>> Now that you have already converted to 134a, you can
>> legally step up and
>> convert to a blended refrigerant like Freeze-12,
>> which will give you
>> performance within a gnats whisker of the original
>> R-12, and is a lot
>> cheaper. The rules regarding all this are an
>> abfuscation in my opinion,
>> but if you really dig into it, you discover that
>> legally you can't go
>> directly from R-12 to a blended refrigerant like
>> Freeze-12, but by
>> regulation you must first convert - using all the
>> proper steps - to
>> 134a, then from there you may convert again - using
>> all the proper steps
>> - over to the blended refrigerant. I think the legal
>> beagles were trying
>> to avoid some kind of problems if they said it was
>> OK to convert
>> straight across. No mechanical reason you can't,
>> just legal reasons -
>> it's the rules.
>>
>> Good luck,
>>
>> John Rodgers
>> 88 GL driver
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
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>
>
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