Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:01:35 -0500
Reply-To: ------------- <VW4X4@VERIZON.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: ------------- <VW4X4@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Our warranty WAS: RE: Boston Bob engines - Use caution
In-Reply-To: <00da01c73a07$47d51f00$0301a8c0@beast>
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Any idea as to how many inline 4 cly. VW engines were made of the exact
same bolt in block 1.6, 1.7, 1.8 and 2.0 block? (from 1974 to 1999)
Joe. W
Bostig Eng wrote:
>Ben Wrote: "Company like Vanaru and Bostig are looking for installer, the
>have good warranty, i'm ready to install for them, if the engine breaks
>after 8 months and they go out of business... who will be responsible, the
>installer or the conversion company?"
>
>Had to comment, and I warn in advance this thing is LOOOOONG, and I wandered
>a bit... Hopefully something good for you guys in here though... At least a
>glimpse into my mania anyhow ha
>
>Anyhow we took this into account when putting our conversion together,
>because this is something one should consider when evaluating any large
>purchase. This is from our website: "We felt that if we were to buy an
>engine conversion kit, we'd want to be able to maintain it without always
>needing to go back to the kit "manufacturer" as it's not always possible to
>do so. Instead, it made more sense to us to utilize the massive parts and
>support-infrastructure already in place for the Zetec engine. We have spent
>extra time to develop our kit with this "exploitation" idea in mind, and we
>are very proud of the results."
>
>Say for example you have your worst case scenario, and we either don't make
>it or say you've driven the 100,000 miles and you're out of warranty and you
>break a rod with a 150 shot of nitrous(unlikely, but a fun what if). You'll
>have to buy your own engine. We thought of that when looking for engines
>since that is what we planned on doing on Brady's van anyhow(not the
>nitrous, although the more I think of it the more fun it sounds). We knew he
>would eventually need(or just want) another *younger* engine at some point
>for some reason if he is going to beat the crap out of it for decades to
>come.
>
>We chose an engine which saw such high production numbers to base the
>conversion on, that the engine is inexpensive to replace *as well as* being
>very well designed and very well built. Ford made 3,500,000 zetecs. To put
>that in perspective, if you take every Subaru engine from every displacement
>and engine family from the 1.6L to the 3.0H6 from the 15 years 1990-2005...
>You are *still* a half million engines shy of zetec production numbers.
>That's a massive difference. As a result, the high quality of the engine
>itself and the development that went into it are had at bargain basement
>prices for the zetecs. These economies of scale are what the OEMs are all
>pursuing in powerplant, drivetrain, automotive-electronics, and platform
>development now. It is the BEST way to deliver ultra high reliability(and as
>a result a great warranty) and high performance/quality, while
>simultaneously being low cost. This is the principle which is also allowing
>rapid advance in many disparate areas of automotive development, don't put
>all your eggs in one part of the car so-to-speak. It seems consistent with
>general investment advise I've always heard and risk management books too,
>I'll stop since I must sound stupid to the wicked experts we likely have on
>these things on the list right now. Anyhow there aren't any economies of
>scale to be had in just about anything vanagon, let alone conversions that
>people may not be "brand comfortable" with but we cared about the benefits,
>results, and potential more than the brand.
>
> The average price paid for zetecs is $400-$500 with less than 8K miles,
>SHIPPED. This is what allows us to use awesome materials, fasteners, best
>practices, and new parts(like brand new wiring harnesses) since we don't
>have a $2000-$3000 high mileage rebuilt engine sitting in the middle taking
>a huge chunk of the conversion cost. There is more money to spend on the
>other details of the conversion, manufacturing, and for ongoing development
>as well as support. We leverage a brilliant little engine, that can be had
>at such a price as the engine itself is almost disposable. We always joke,
>need new spark plugs? Buy a new engine. This is also important, because
>total reliability is negatively impacted by any rebuild, rebuilds will never
>be as good as a factory engine no matter how good a builder you are. For
>example a factory robot or assembly machine can torque all the headbolts or
>main caps simultaneously to many many decimal places more accurately than a
>human, and the same applies to almost all aspects of modern engine
>manufacture and assembly. Our approach is always deal in factory longblocks
>or complete engines of excellent design and manufacture. We side with the
>OEMs in wanting engines cheap/plentiful/robust enough to never require
>opening and never require rebuilding, and engines that will outlast many and
>be many times more reliable than those engines that are worth rebuilding
>because they are otherwise unavailable or too expensive to get new/low
>mileage.
>
>But there are other things to consider too. What the subie guys have is also
>cool. THEY have the benefit of a loosely organized open source project. This
>is another aspect which is important to consider. Centralized development is
>great for rapid consistent development if you have high quality developers
>and enough resources to keep them moving, but there is a safety net in
>decentralized development since it can't be taken away from everyone at the
>same time, even by one or several vendors going out of business. So to also
>provide our customers with the same safety net that the subie guys have in
>decentralized development, we also have a "Bostig Defcon 1" plan. Which is
>simply the full and organized release of all of our development and
>proprietary information to the protection of a GPL, and "open source" status
>if the business itself were to fail. We are already getting some practice
>and are getting ready to release our LMU mass air meter conversion
>development info. We are going open source with it, and we're going to hand
>over to Jon that's been working so hard on the same area recently. I think
>an open source approach for this project, and in particular within this
>community, may be a really great way of getting the maximum benefit to the
>greatest number of folks, as cheaply and quickly as possible. It is also
>going to serve as our first foray into the whole open source and GPL idea,
>since we've often talked about making Bostig a non-profit anyhow. It would
>be cool to have a non-profit that could organize resources for doing
>something as specific as providing high-tech, high quality solutions to
>"vintage" vehicle owners. Anyhow, the bottom line is this:
>
>Needing a new engine is not the end of the world, and actually should be
>expected and planned for if you are a "long haul" type of vehicle
>enthusiast, or if your wring every drop of usefullness from stuff you
>own(ahem, Brady). A good warranty is good, and those that stand behind them
>also wonderful, but it's even better if even in the worst case
>scenario(which is the person that is standing behind the warranty is taken
>out of the picture) *still* isn't catastrophic to your wallet. I've been
>powned too many times by companies that can effectively shield my efforts to
>get them to honor their own promises to not try to make my own efforts not
>nearly as dependant on us as an entity to still provide value long after a
>failure if it were to happen. I/We take every step possible to do the exact
>opposite of screwing anyone to make sure we don't. Definately not
>intentionally, but also not through lack of foresight, even if we happen to
>end up totally screwed ourselves. Consider the worst, enjoy the best, such
>is everything.
>
>Sorry for the long post,
>
>
>Jim Akiba
>
>P.S. nobody mentioned that Bob's computer and outlook email totally sh*t the
>bed recently either... If you don't get a reply, try a good 'ol telephone
>just generally speaking... Most people have some trouble with their email at
>the perfectly worst moment possible at some point or another. Bob is a
>great guy, with loads of integrity, and an absolutely outstanding engine
>builder if not the very best and most knowledgeable out there. If I had to
>go back to a boxer I'd trust him with my rebuild.
>
>________________________________________
>Bostig Engineering
>Engine Systems Voodoo
>http://www.bostig.com/
>617.272.3800
>
>
>
>
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