Date:         Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:37:12 -0700
Reply-To:     Keith Hughes <keithahughes@QWEST.NET>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Keith Hughes <keithahughes@QWEST.NET>
Subject:      Re: Moral question
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

>Date:    Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:29:01 -0500
>From:    Geza Polony <gezapolony@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
>Subject: Re: Moral question
>
>This is kind of my sentiment on the whole issue. You're paying for
>expertise, not time. The neighbor's kid has time. So does his dog. So if he
>doesn't diagnose and fix the problem, he shouldn't get paid. However, in
>real life it doesn't always work like that.
>
With all due respect, you've seriously missed the boat here.  You are
paying for *both* expertise and time, as one is useless without the
other.  And as Ben put it, you have to communicate with the customer,
and the customer needs to understand what/how they will be charged for
labor. Having spent 8years twisting wrenches for a living through
high-school and college (back in the olden days), I've seen it from both
ends.  Crooks making big bucks by screwing customers, honest mechanics
getting screwed by ill-informed unreasonable customers.

As a customer, you want to call up your mechanic and say I have problem
XYZ, how much will it cost to fix?  If it's a simple tuneup, water pump,
etc. that's reasonable.  If it's a 20+ year old vehicle with an
intermittent problem that could have 30 different causes (including some
of the work previously done by you, or other mechanics) then that's not
a reasonable expectation.  I used to have that all the time...'my car's
making this noise, what will it cost to fix it?"...My answer?  I've got
a string in my pocket, how long is it?  The point is that there's
insufficient data in both cases to make any reasonable estimate.  We
charged a fixed one-hour diagnostic fee, as a minimum, for purely
diagnostic work (which is where you are at this point).  In that time,
we could rule in/out all the most likely causes of the problem.  After
that, we would inform the customer that either  A) the problem is this,
and this is what it'll cost, or B) you have a more in-depth problem
(typically electrical/electronic) that will require more time to run
down, the cost will be $XX/hr and could run between XX and YY
hours...how do you want to proceed?

This is the reputable way to operate.  No matter what my level of
expertise is, it will still take as long as it takes to run down all the
sensors, wires, electronics, etc. until the problem is found, and
neither you nor I can know, a priori, how long that will be.  You don't
work for free, why do would expect a mechanic to?

>
>HVAC people and other tradesmen will put a lien on your building if they
>don't get paid.
>

And mechanics, in Arizona, can and will do the same.  The shop I worked
at in college did that, and I bought the '67 Datsun from them, for the
labor/parts bill, when we got the title.

>Car are different since you can't place a lien on them.
>
Don't know what state you are in, but that's clearly not the case in AZ.

Bottom line, when it comes to wierd stuff (i.e. idiosyncratic to a
specific vehicle - clearly your problem fits the description), you need
to make sure you take the van to someone with experience in the oddball
Vanagon quirks, and then be sure you understand, and agree to, how
diagnostic time is going to be charged.  It may then cost more than you
want, but it'll be fair to all sides involved.

As to your specific problem, I'd check check for a worn throttle plate
shaft (open the butterfly slightly and check for side-to-side play in
the shaft), check your coil (not by Bently specs - that only tells you
if it's dead) by putting a digital voltmeter on the + side of the coil
and watching the voltage, especially when the idle's dropping out if
possible).  The voltage should hold stabile (or rise with RPM) but if
you see an intermittent drop, or open circuit, on the meter, especially
coinciding with the rpm cutout, thats an intermittent short between the
coil primary/secondary windings.  Also check your injector spray
patterns (actually very easy and clean, just collect the gas in a
container and pour back into the tank), and check especially for drips
and leakage after closing - check multiple openings/closings to rule out
intermittent sticking, and replace the injector seals (and hoses while
you've got the little devils out).  As to the leaking intake valve
possibility - I don't buy it.  An intake valve that was seating poorly
enought to affect idle is not long for the world anyway, and you'd
certainly hear it popping back in the intake.

Good luck,

Keith Hughes
'86 Westy (now Tiico)