Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:33:42 -0500
Reply-To: Geza Polony <gezapolony@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Geza Polony <gezapolony@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Subject: Re: Moral question
Keith,
Well, yes, you're paying for both--you can't have expertise without time.
What I'm objecting to, especially, is the mechanic who says: "Stumbling
idle? Well, first we'll do a tune up." You end up with a new dist. cap,
plugs etc., and the thing still does what it was doing. Then he says, "OK,
we'll replace the distributor...and on and on..." There are plenty of
mechanics out there who will do this, including dealers. I think it's
because diagnostics is one of the hardest things to do in mechanics,
especially when, as you point out, the vehicle is old and quirky. I wouldn't
want to do it either. Much easier to "do a tuneup" and see what happens.
If the tuneup doesn't fix the problem, most people are going to pay
anyway--because in reality, the mech said he was going to do a tuneup, not
fix the problem. But the customer may not be too happy about it.
I also have been on the opposite side of the equation, not as a mechanic, as
anyone here can tell, but as a building contractor when I was an
undergraduate. Plenty of stories to tell about not getting paid, for bogus
reasons. There's a lot less purely diagnostic work in contracting, but there
are all the cases where you open up a wall or floor and realize your work
has just doubled, and you have to go back to the now-pissed-off customer and
negotiate something. It's been years but I recall it well.
I did check the throttle body by removing it and looking through to see if
there was play and if I could see light around the butterfly valve, which I
couldn't (I was comparing it to a known-bad one I got from a local mech.)
Thanks for the tip on the coil check. It sounds easy enough. One of these
days I'll try the injector test if my environmentally sensitive neighbors
take a vacation. Working in the street has its drawbacks.
As Nietzsche said, What doesn't kill me makes me stronger, and right now I'm
not feeling like this is making me stronger. I think I'll just let the idle
stumble and come back to it.
Hey, there's a new solution.
Thanks for the response.
Geza
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:37:12 -0700, Keith Hughes <keithahughes@QWEST.NET> wrote:
>>Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:29:01 -0500
>>From: Geza Polony <gezapolony@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
>>Subject: Re: Moral question
>>
>>This is kind of my sentiment on the whole issue. You're paying for
>>expertise, not time. The neighbor's kid has time. So does his dog. So if he
>>doesn't diagnose and fix the problem, he shouldn't get paid. However, in
>>real life it doesn't always work like that.
>>
>With all due respect, you've seriously missed the boat here. You are
>paying for *both* expertise and time, as one is useless without the
>other. And as Ben put it, you have to communicate with the customer,
>and the customer needs to understand what/how they will be charged for
>labor. Having spent 8years twisting wrenches for a living through
>high-school and college (back in the olden days), I've seen it from both
>ends. Crooks making big bucks by screwing customers, honest mechanics
>getting screwed by ill-informed unreasonable customers.
>
>As a customer, you want to call up your mechanic and say I have problem
>XYZ, how much will it cost to fix? If it's a simple tuneup, water pump,
>etc. that's reasonable. If it's a 20+ year old vehicle with an
>intermittent problem that could have 30 different causes (including some
>of the work previously done by you, or other mechanics) then that's not
>a reasonable expectation. I used to have that all the time...'my car's
>making this noise, what will it cost to fix it?"...My answer? I've got
>a string in my pocket, how long is it? The point is that there's
>insufficient data in both cases to make any reasonable estimate. We
>charged a fixed one-hour diagnostic fee, as a minimum, for purely
>diagnostic work (which is where you are at this point). In that time,
>we could rule in/out all the most likely causes of the problem. After
>that, we would inform the customer that either A) the problem is this,
>and this is what it'll cost, or B) you have a more in-depth problem
>(typically electrical/electronic) that will require more time to run
>down, the cost will be $XX/hr and could run between XX and YY
>hours...how do you want to proceed?
>
>This is the reputable way to operate. No matter what my level of
>expertise is, it will still take as long as it takes to run down all the
>sensors, wires, electronics, etc. until the problem is found, and
>neither you nor I can know, a priori, how long that will be. You don't
>work for free, why do would expect a mechanic to?
>
>>
>>HVAC people and other tradesmen will put a lien on your building if they
>>don't get paid.
>>
>
>And mechanics, in Arizona, can and will do the same. The shop I worked
>at in college did that, and I bought the '67 Datsun from them, for the
>labor/parts bill, when we got the title.
>
>>Car are different since you can't place a lien on them.
>>
>Don't know what state you are in, but that's clearly not the case in AZ.
>
>Bottom line, when it comes to wierd stuff (i.e. idiosyncratic to a
>specific vehicle - clearly your problem fits the description), you need
>to make sure you take the van to someone with experience in the oddball
>Vanagon quirks, and then be sure you understand, and agree to, how
>diagnostic time is going to be charged. It may then cost more than you
>want, but it'll be fair to all sides involved.
>
>As to your specific problem, I'd check check for a worn throttle plate
>shaft (open the butterfly slightly and check for side-to-side play in
>the shaft), check your coil (not by Bently specs - that only tells you
>if it's dead) by putting a digital voltmeter on the + side of the coil
>and watching the voltage, especially when the idle's dropping out if
>possible). The voltage should hold stabile (or rise with RPM) but if
>you see an intermittent drop, or open circuit, on the meter, especially
>coinciding with the rpm cutout, thats an intermittent short between the
>coil primary/secondary windings. Also check your injector spray
>patterns (actually very easy and clean, just collect the gas in a
>container and pour back into the tank), and check especially for drips
>and leakage after closing - check multiple openings/closings to rule out
>intermittent sticking, and replace the injector seals (and hoses while
>you've got the little devils out). As to the leaking intake valve
>possibility - I don't buy it. An intake valve that was seating poorly
>enought to affect idle is not long for the world anyway, and you'd
>certainly hear it popping back in the intake.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Keith Hughes
>'86 Westy (now Tiico)
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