Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:47:34 -0500
Reply-To: Sam Walters <sam.cooks@VERIZON.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Sam Walters <sam.cooks@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Moral qestion--Now diagnostics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0701181050540.26506@kenneke.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
Geza,
You said you checked the grounds, but didn't say you cleaned them all.
There have been many instances of stumbling FI type problems being cured
when the owner cleaned the grounds, particularly the ones on the
negative terminal of the battery and the transmission. Of course, all
of them are important. But people several people who thought their
grounds looked good have solved a difficult problem by cleaning a ground.
As Jon suggested, the idle control unit can be the problem - it plagued
my 84 for a couple of years and no one could find it although they took
lots of my $$ while searching and installing unnecessary parts. After I
found the list, I figured it out and got one from a list vendor for $30
and installed it in 5 minutes.
Disconnect it and connect the ends of the plugs of the wiring harness
that came out of the Idle Stabilizer/Control unit. You can drive a long
time this way. It may make for rougher running in cold weather. If the
problem disappears, and reappears when you reconnect the unit, it is an
easy fix.
It isn't that hard to take the voltmeter and the Bentley and test
virtually every component in the FI system. This will help with regard
to things like the injectors as mentioned by Jon. There is a set of
tables that tell you how to test many components through the holes on
the wiring harness ECU connection and pages of material for checking
individual components. It is a bit daunting the first time you do it,
but it can easily identify a problem. I have been learning to do this
lately on my 85 Weekender with the Digijet controlled 1.9l engine.
Look at the attached files for some suggestions for diagnosis.
Good luck,
Sam
--
Sam Walters
Baltimore, MD
Some of you might have read my posts about thinking I had timing problems on my new 1.9 in my '85 Vanagon.
Upon furthur sleuthing, cyl 1 and 3 seem to not get any gas.
If I pull the connectors going to either 1 or 3 when the motor is running, it keeps on going, If I do that to either 1 or 4, it dies !
I've troubleshot as per the Digijet F.I. manual, metering on the ECU multi-pin connector, and all my injectors measure out to 18 ohms as per spec.
However, what is REALLY odd is that the book states the following for the
respective terminals to the ECU:
11 & 7 to cyl 2 Mine meters to cyl 4
12 & 7 to cyl 1 Mine meters to cyl 3
23 & 7 to cyl 4 Mine meters to cyl 1
24 & 7 to cyl 2 Mine meters to cyl 2
And what is odd is that you cannot mistake the injector wires and their bundle to cyl 1 & 2 because they are longer and have to go ACROSS the engine. The respective wires to cyl 3 & 4 are only like 8" or so from the main cable bundle to the ecu !!
I am getting spark to ALL 4 cyl.
If I disconnect either plug 2 or 4 when the motor is running (Yes, your 1.9 WILL run on 1 cyl !) you can definatly smell the unburned gas in the exhaust and on the plug.
If I do the same for plugs 1 and 3, nothing, no gas smell, nothing.
Also plugs 1 and 3 are clean, out of the box clean, 2 & 4 are showing use.
What's up ???
Frustrated in Memphis !!!!
Ken Wilford replies:
Is this the first time you are trying to run your new engine? I would check
compression on these two cylinders that you are having the problem with. My
guess is that they will have zero compression. The reason for this is that the
push rods that are not properly seated in the lifters. This is very easy to
mistakenly do (I know about this problem and still do this from time to time).
If the push rods are not properly centered in the lifter then they will hang
the valves open and cause zero compression. The solution is to remove the
rocker arm assembly on the side that you are fixing and reinstall the push rods
being sure to center them. Reinstall the rocker arm assembly. Then adjust the
valves to zero lash (just touching the ends of the valves).
It is probably not a fuel injection harness problem (just my experience again).
FYI the injectors are not individually pulsed. They are all pulsed at the same
time and that is why you can plug the wiring harness into any injector (if the
wires will reach) and it will not make a difference. You can test the actual
wiring by swapping the wiring on one side from one injector to the other. If
the non-fire follows the injector plug then you have a wiring problem, if it
doesn't then you have a different problem.
The only other thing that I can think of if you do have good compression is
that you have two bad injectors. This is possible, but most of the time these
fail by leaking, not by not opening (just my experience). Hope this helps you.
Thanks,
Ken Wilford
www.vanagain.com
John 3:16
--
Thanks,
Ken Wilford
John 3:16
http://www.vanagain.com
Phone: 856-327-4936
Fax: 856-327-2242
85 Troubleshooting
From: John Clavin <jc@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Subject: Engine Cutout
In-Reply-To: <200201022050.g02KoCll011338@txmx01.mgw.rr.com>
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After continuing to work the usual cures for my persistent problems with engine stumbling or hesitation, the problem has only gotten worse with my 1985 Vanagon during the past two months. The latest episodes, which now occur daily, involve the engine completely cutting out. The tach crashes *hard* to zero and the engine is *dead*, only to mysteriously revive a good one or two seconds later. Here is the status of my anti-stumbling efforts to date:
AFM - reconditioned unit just installed (did wonders for overall driveability, eliminated surging, and smoothed out the idle - but no effect on the cutout problem)
Throttle Plate Switch - installed new cam, adjusted correctly, switch tested ok
Temp Sensors - resistance measures within limits per Bentley
From: Laurence Smith <lsmith@COGECO.CA>
Subject: Re: Power loss still in '85
Comments: To: Andree Hurley <ahurley@VIEWIT.COM>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0201121148390.56320-100000@bemnet.pair.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think the fuel injection is suspect. It can be a PITA to diagnose and resolve.
Based on the numerous fuel injection problems posted on this list and your description of the problem I would break down the cause into probabilties:
The high probabilty stuff first: * Worn out Air Flow Meter * Temp II sender gone bad
Medium probability: * Timing * Idle stabilizer * Vaccuum leak * O2 sensor
Low probability stuff: * ECU * Fuel pump * Fuel pressure regulator * Throttle switch * Collapsed catalytic * Ground wires * Hall sender * Gummed up injector(s)
Most of this stuff can be tested with a voltage/ohmn meter and a Bentley manual.
My guess: Temp II sender
Laurence Smith Hamilton, ON 90 Westy (fanumbos)
From: Chuck Mathis <CMathis227@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: 1.9L bogging down on acceleration when hot..anyone ideas???
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I went through a whole bunch of stuff to try to eliminate a similar problem with my '85. Start with the cheap stuff first.
Make sure the intake boot is well attached and in good condition. (This was actually my final solution after all the other stuff.) Check the carbon track in the AFM -- mine had a bad spot just above the normal idle position. I enlarged the screw holes in the board and shifted it so that the arm ran on a fresh track. (This was my next to the last step and solved most of the problem.) Check on the condition of all the vacuum lines -- especially those small ones attached to the fuel pressure regulator. Check the fuel pressure and function of the fuel pressure regulator. Try tightening the AFM spring some. Be sure to keep track of the number of notches you move the wheel -- you may want to put it back at some point.
Chuck '85 Wolfsburg Westy - 'Roland the Road Buffalo'
Idle Stabilizer - new, but bypassing it seems not to make any difference with respect to the cutout and stumbling problem (in fact, with the new AFM, the van runs just as good without this thing, so I have left it bypassed)
Ignition Coil - resistance checks ok per Bentley (are there other tests?)
Hall Control Unit and Sender - pass all voltage and operating tests per Bentley
Cap & Rotor - good condition, relatively new, rotor ohms out ok
Plug wires - good condition, resistance ok per Bentley
Plugs - W7DTC, relatively new - replacing them did not help.
O2 sensor - relatively new, replacing it did not help.
CO screw setting - 1-3/4 turns from bottom (remanufactured AFM came set this way). Checked setting against O2 sensor readings and concluded after some adjusting that this was a good setting - O2 sensor readings oscillate, crossing over 0.5 volts, during "normal" warm idle.
Idle setting - who knows? Most of the time it idles 900-1100. but then some times it revs back and forth from 1000-1500+, other times it stays at 1500+ and only slowly comes down. I don't know how to set the idle adjust screw under these conditions.
Timing - running approx 3-5 deg ATDC (spec for '85 is 5 deg ATDC) - have experimented with settings from 5 deg BTDC to 5 deg ATDC, some differences in driveability but no setting seems to eliminate the cutout or stumbling.
Grounds - all grounds coming off the left side of the engine ohm out ok
ECU - visually inspected the circuit board - all solder joints look good, no signs of any overheating
Vacuum lines - all in good condition, all vacuum devices tested for leaks and checked out ok
Fuel pressure regulator - measured a few pounds higher than Bentley calls for (both with and without vacuum)
Fuel filter - will change it this week (but gut feel and past experience tells me this is not going to make a difference)
After doing some lengthy searches on the archives (again!), it appears there are lots of reasons for stumbling, but some people who have had the severe engine cutout as I described ultimately traced it to a bad ECU or Hall Sender. Is this true? Anyone have a different experience? Anyway, I am concentrating my next efforts on these plus the cabling and &$#*& plug on the distributor that connects the Hall Sender. Other opinions, suggestions, and guesses are eagerly solicited. I am getting desperate -- at this point I am even willing to replace the front bumper if there is the slightest chance it could help. However, funds and patience are becoming exhausted.
Are there any other tests (besides Bentley) to perform on the Hall Sender? Can this thing become intermittent and still test good per Bentley? Any ideas regarding the likelihood of it being the Hall Sender vs. the ECU? Is there a kind soul out there in the Central Texas area with a known, good ECU spare I could borrow for substitution testing with mine?
I don't deserve this... really. I still have the original German air in my Continental spare! I need my life and my van back. Help...
John Clavin 1985 Vanagon GL Austin, TX