Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:15:46 -0800
Reply-To: Philip Zimmerman <philzimm1@OBERON.ARK.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Philip Zimmerman <philzimm1@OBERON.ARK.COM>
Subject: Batteries don't die, they get murdered
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Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:07:07 -0700
Reply-To: David Etter <detter@MAIL.AURACOM.COM>
Subject: Batteries don't die, they get murdered
WAS: the discussion on "BATTERIES FOR CAUNCKS"
David wrote in part:
Frank Condelli .."...was not impressed."
Lorne Busch has.."... been hesitant to go with sealed or AGM."
With heavyweights like those two, one begins to doubt Optimas claims...
As do most other Optima owners.
I too got burnt when a pretty YellowTop Optima
turned ugly simply through a lack of information.
If you know it's limitations, and having
done the math, you can decide whether it's worth
the extra money.
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David,
Wonderful rant and with good sound information to
fight back with but, I gotta ask.. who you going
after? I do appreciate your willingness to share
your experience and info with the list though.
For the failure of your Optima..... lets go after
"Johnson Controls".... down with the corporate-pigs!
Geeze, I really date myself when I talk like this.
Personally, I call all things battery related:
"Battery Voodoo"... and I am a Caunck/Canuck?
Oh, and I run two Optima's in parallel, with Ok results.
Even murdered them once. Drained that pair of
puppies down to 4.0 volts (my own stupidity).
Praise the battery-gods, the Optima's resurrected
themselves and have purred along for another 2 years.
Did a similar discharge to a deep-cycle wet-cell,
previous to the above experience (I learn slowly) and
that generic-named battery soon died. Not as expected
though. Held its Amps and discharged Ok but didn't like
to recharge without boiling! Boiled its juices onto
my new paint I had lovingly applied to my ride's innards.
That was it! Sent it back for a refund. No more
wet-cells for this Canuck! I am lying, I still
use a wet-cell Starting-Battery... I gotta get
rid of that liquid-filled bomb soon though......
If I wait long enough, it will fall-out on its own.
What Van hasn't suffered a battery burp in its lifetime?
Battery Acid corrodes-out the bottom of the battery box!
You are bang-on about the DODs and charging information.
Abuse either and your battery will soon tell you by dying.
More battery voodoo is in order here to perhaps punctuate
what will work and why.
DOD's are pretty much a users responsibility. From reading
your post here, I believe we agree on this point. On the
cheap, a volt-meter will keep the user relatively well
informed of a battery's state of charge. Not a perfect
solution but cost effective IMHO. If the user wants to live
on the edge (and soon be in the dark) rely on those idiot lights
Westfalia provided on the front of the sink/stove cabinet.
Now, a really heavy-weight list-member Mark Drillock recently
posted on this very subject. Taught us all how to "trim"
a "pot" in that set of indicator lights and make it work real
good. (check the archives under Drillock). A few comments on
battery Capacity are needed to de-voodooize this DOD subject.
All Claims of Battery Capacity are like smoke being blown-up
your rear-end... it ruins your autopsy results. Rely on what
the manufacturer says and you will soon be dead yourself, along
with that zillion dollar Optima or whatever battery you are
using. Take the advertised claim and de-rated it by 25-50%!
Gee, do the marketing folks fudge the numbers that much. No
but, they aren't camping with you in Almounte, ON like Frank
or up at Table Mountain with Loren. Both these heavyweight
guys place some pretty tough demands on their batteries and
under some real tough temperature extremes. Batteries love
room temperature, Westie Campers love the extremes. Figure
what you need in the way of Capacity and then double it,
you will not be disappointed and your battery will love you
for it. Abuse this and your battery will fight back by dying
sooner than later.
Now on-to the Charging part of David's rant. Now mine too David!
I belong to but, don't practice the KISS (keep it simple stupid)
VW-Westfalia method of Charging Batteries. Keep the stock wiring
in really good shape, add a second Group-41 wet-cell under your
butt if you want, you and your Van will be happy-campers. This
is probably the most cost-effective way to provide yourself
with DC and some limited AC voltages while camping. Not enough
Amp-Hours for all the stuff you want to run while camping?
You want more? Every battery manufacturer will sell you more!
Will you be getting more? Depends! Sorry to be vague here but
depends, maybe, perhaps, depends how you do it, what you use;
are all factors that effect the outcome of: Am I getting more!
Deep-cycle wet-cell batteries are the grand old standard of
House or Auxiliary Systems. A quality wet-cell if maintained
properly will give excellent-reasonable service. Ask around this
community, how many are using Group-41 wet-cells? Plenty,
says my jungle telegraph. But it's not a Deep-Cycle Battery!
Who cares, your battery has no mind of its own. Treat it
gently, respect its DOD and the two of you will get along
well. It's cheap, easy to find and works. I personally
don't choose to sleep with wet-cells anymore but this is
more a personal decision than an economic or environmental
question. Joy H. will perhaps slap me for saying this though?
Is a Sealed Lead-Acid (SLA) or AGM better?
Not with the stock charging system. IMHO
Ok, flame-suit on... now starts the thread down and dirty!
SLA's, also called Gel or Calcium Cells, hate stock dirty automotive
alternator charging systems. Like we all have on our Vans. They charge
just Ok but get way more/less voltage than they like and will
die an early death from this abuse. Add a trick "smart" regulator to
your Van and your Gel-Cell will love you. But you will be out about
$3-400 USA bucks. The SLA's used in UPS are wimp batteries! They sit
in a box all day indoors, sipping a charge voltage from a wall-brick
charger. They hate heat and vibrations as much as they hate anything
less than a real digitally controlled charger. Sure, they will work
in a Van for a while but will die an early death. The so-called
Wheel Chair SLA's appear to die too. A friends died in about 2 years
of moderate use. I suspect, too many DOD's and not
enough/correct charge time/voltage in between DOD's meaning:
not enough battery Capacity for the intended use.
See how battery Voodoo rises up and bites you?
A quality Gel-Cell will give excellent discharges at really cold
temperatures.... Greg Potts, are you reading, for the Land of Yes?
The AGM's can be a good option for the heavy-user of Amp-hours.
I recall when the Roadhaus was humping around this land sucking
both its Optima's down to 10.5 volts most nights of the
year.... that first pair lasted well past the first year. The
Haus was running a stock alternator and solenoids in the charging
system. So what does this say about Optima AGM Batteries? They
seem pretty tough in this situation. Was this optimum? Not for
the average Optima... if you believe half of what Optima publishes
about their products. In the case of the Haus, she ran a good lot
most days, nearly re-charging the Optima's to 13 volts I suspect.
My pet-peeve with Optima's and the stock charging system in a
Vanagon is the wimpy 13.8 volts (at best) out of the Alternator.
To fully charge an Optima, one needs a bit more push (voltage)
to bring a discharged battery up to a full capacity charge.
If not present that expensive piece of AGM technology is just
floating along at about 75-80% efficiency, I say. Sure it works
and you can shoot it with a 30:30 or 303 or whatever you carry
and the thing will still start your ride following the shoot-out.
Geeze, don't you love what marketing will do to sell a battery.
Perhaps law enforcement and the military have a need for this
form of reliability but not the average Vanagon driver? I hope!
Now for my personal story. Here I stand, an Optima junkie/slut/addict.
Optima, the battery I love to hate. With Exide and Odyssey now
on scene, Optima has some competition in the AGM marketplace.
Two out of the above three make a size that will
fit in a Vanagon battery box, the Odyssey without any
mods whatsoever. Sure, the Odyssey is rated at 44 Amp/hrs
where the Optima claims 55 Amp/hrs... Pick your poison, direct
fit or max Amp/hrs, your choice. But you are gonna have to
boost your charging voltage to reap the full benefits of AGM!
Install a Bosch adjustable Regulator and tweek-up the voltage
to ~14.2 volts. The limiting voltage here, will be whatever your
starting wet-cell battery will take before boiling it. Put an
AGM in your Starting battery box and say good bye to this issue.
I run at 14.6-7 volts out of the Alternator, which leaves a
Sure-Power Isolator at 14.2 volts. As long as I do not overfill
the wet-cell starting battery, I have not experienced excessive
out-gassing or boiling. Following a short drive the two Optima's
are showing 12.9-13.0 volts at rest. This is probably float but
following a good run down the road, I park with a solid 13.0+ volts.
Run laptop, lights, stereo with 300 watt Amp, Espar furnace all night,
by morning, usually showing 12.2 to 12.5 volts on the meter. Can park
for a day or two without running the engine. When 11.5 volts show on
the volt meter, with stuff still running, I think about running the
engine or going for a drive. Been doing this for about 4 years and
for 4-6 months a year full-timing. Same two Optima's.
The point here, if there is a point to be made in battery voodooland.
Size your battery capacity to your load requirements. Your batteries,
whatever their make or model will like you for this consideration.
Abuse, omit, miss-read or ignore battery voodoo... you will suffer
all reasonable and logical consequences. AGM's are not magic.
They, like any battery technology have limits. Just a few tougher
than the average wet-cell if sized accordingly. And what the heck,
you can shoot them full of holes if you like, and still live to start
your Van and drive to the battery store for a new one, without holes....
Thanks David, for the motivation to write all this drizzle about
battery voodoo. Thanks list for the bandwidth if anyone is still
reading....... (:-|
good-night all
Phil Z.
Campbell River, BC
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