Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:51:26 -0800
Reply-To: "Mike \"Rocket J Squirrel\" Elliott" <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "Mike \"Rocket J Squirrel\" Elliott" <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poptop Raise Assists (Fryeday content)
In-Reply-To: <45cb527f.2d34af84.7440.ffffe67e@mx.google.com>
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Hi Joy,
Howzabout this:
Picture two 3-foot poles joined together with a hinge so that they can
be folded down to 3 feet (closed), or opened up to a single 6-footer.
Now, when the poptop is down, the distance from it to the van's floor is
something like 4 feet, I reckon. Suppose you take that folded pole into
the van with you and brace the lower end on the floor against the rear
of the driver's seat pedestal, and open it so that the upper end is
pressed against the underside of the lift bar. Maybe have groove in the
end of the upper pole to catch that bar.
The pole would not be able to be opened to its full 6-foot extension,
since the lid is down, so it would look like a sideways "V" with the
pointy part pointing toward the rear of the van.
If you can get that picture in your head, then imagine standing between
the hinge and the rear bench seat and pushing forward against the hinge.
Maybe really lean your hip into it.
The pole would want to unfold, and in order to do that, something would
have to give. The floor can't move down, so the lift bar would have to
go up.*
I'm not enough of a physics kinda guy to calculate the mechanical ad- or
disadvantage of this "machine." But for someone who can't push up,
shoving with a hip or butt might be easier, which trumps whether some
force is lost in the linkage.
*Actually, when the poptop starts its journey upward, I reckon that the
liftbar initially needs to be pushed forward more than upward, and the
direction of force wants to be more and more upward as it raises. So
maybe the top needs to get started with a folded pole thing between the
front edge of the upper bunk and the liftbar. Pull down to extend. Hang
"S" from it. Then use the 6-foot floor bar take over.
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
KG6RCR
On 2/8/2007 8:40 AM Joy Hecht wrote:
> LOL!
>
> I can dead lift straight up quite easily - no problems getting the poptop up
> three fourths of the way with the kayak on the roof. Just bend the knees
> and straighten them to push up.
>
> But it's the last part that's out of the question to do. I can't get that
> much force without using my knees, and my arms are pretty much straight by
> that point too.
>
> I tried using an unhinged pole, and it worked up to a certain amount of
> weight but when I added the last ten or fifteen pounds I couldn't do it.
> That involved placing my stepladder and the pole - 2x2, pretty solid - in a
> convenient place. Then start pushing up. When I got much of the way I'd
> somehow (can't remember how!) manage to pull the pole up and prop the top on
> it, holding it half way up. Then I'd climb the stepladder and use my knees
> to get it the rest of the way.
>
> Unfortunately with everything up there, I couldn't do it.
>
> I'm still not correctly envisioning the hinged pole as you see it. Mike
> Elliott sent this info:
>
> "Anyhoo, a hinged rod placed up against the poptop is 1/2 a scissors jack.
> By pushing on the hinge to straighten the rod, your mechanical force is
> increased. The mechanical advantage increases as the rod comes closer to
> straight, which is the only downside to the idea -- one would want great
> mechanical advantage from the get-go, when the rod is more folded and the
> top is in its lowered position."
>
> I don't know what a scissors jack is, so I'm not sure how this would work.
> Are both ends of the pole braced against something, or just one end?
> Presumably both? I read something that suggested that the pole would be
> placed so it's L-shaped - one side vertical pushing against the poptop and
> the other horizontal heading to the back of the van. But I guess you mean
> that one end is on the poptop and the other on the floor, and the hinge
> pushing back? Then pushing it straight would make sense.
>
> But that doesn't solve the problem I face lifting my poptop anyhow!
>
> Michael, you might be right about women being worse at spatial perception
> than men, I dunno. Certainly people say that. Though straightforward lack
> of mechanical knowledge - i.e. what a scissors jack is - might have more to
> do with why this made no sense to me. Also it didn't occurred to me that
> you guys have trouble starting the lift but can finish it fine, since I'm
> fine starting the list but can't finish it.
>
>
>
> Joy
>
>
> :::-----Original Message-----
> :::From: David Etter [mailto:detter@mail.auracom.com]
> :::Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 10:27 AM
> :::To: Joy Hecht
> :::Subject: RE: Poptop Raise Assists (Fryeday content)
> :::
> :::Joy:
> ::: Thank you for your input.
> ::: Yes! You will be pushing on the hinge. I never said to push
> :::on the 'end' of the pole. The pole is 4 foot long ONLY when folded in
> :::half for storage. I said the pole was to be approximately 8 feet
> :::long, hinged in the middle. It is not meant to take the PopTop to
> :::it's apogee. My 'PopTop Flex-arm' is merely to assist in lifting
> :::heavy PopTops beyond the critical first stages of lift.
> ::: You would have to remember to 'STOP' pushing before the
> :::PopTop reaches maximum height. This is because the regular crossbar
> :::would bump into your new 'PopTop flex-arm', trapping it in place.
> :::Once the PopTop is almost raised you can finish the lift by removing
> :::my 'Flex-arm' and complete the push using the original crossbar.
> ::: A commercially produced product would need to have a suitable
> :::'foot', a stable 'hinge' and a proper top-end attachment. It's all
> :::finalized in my mind and I only regret I cannot demonstrate it to you.
> :::
> :::Thanks again Joy.
> ::: D.
> :::~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> :::~
> :::
> :::
> :::
> :::
> :::>But if the bend in the thing is hinged, then you have to push where the
> :::>hinge is - not at the end of the pole. Unless you can lock the hinge
> :::>somehow. Even so, it's not clear how you could get the top too high up
> :::with
> :::>a four-foot bent pole.
> :::>
> :::>
> :::>
> :::>Joy
> :::>
> :::>:::-----Original Message-----
> :::>:::From: David Etter [mailto:detter@mail.auracom.com]
> :::>:::Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 12:29 AM
> :::>:::To: Joy Hecht
> :::>:::Subject: Re: Poptop Raise Assists (Fryeday content)
> :::>:::
> :::>:::Hi Joy:
> :::>::: Think... can I push a car/couch/fridge etc. easier than I can
> :::>:::lift one. It is easier because you can use body mass to help you push
> :::>:::horizontally instead of straight muscle to push vertically.
> :::>:::
> :::>::: D. ;-)
> :::>:::~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> :::~~~~
> :::>:::~
> :::>:::
> :::>:::>I don't get it - why should it be any easier to push a pole than to
> :::>:::directly
> :::>:::>push the poptop? You're not getting leverage here.
> :::>:::>
> :::>:::>
> :::>:::>
> :::>:::>Joy
> :::>:::>
> :::>:::>:::-----Original Message-----
> :::>:::>:::From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> :::>:::Behalf
> :::>:::>:::Of David Etter
> :::>:::>:::Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 9:55 PM
> :::>:::>:::To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> :::>:::>:::Subject: Re: Poptop Raise Assists (Fryeday content)
> :::>:::>:::
> :::>:::>:::Just a quick thought.
> :::>:::>:::
> :::>:::>:::How about a low tech approach.
> :::>:::>:::An 8 ft. rod or pole (approximately) hinged in the middle. (work
> :::with
> :::>:::>:::me here now - use your mind)
> :::>:::>:::
> :::>:::>:::One end is placed on the now unlatched mechanism up top and the
> :::other
> :::>:::>:::end is placed on the floor, directly underneath the latch.
> :::>:::>::: Of course, with the top down, and it being 8 feet long,
> :::the
> :::>:::>:::'bent arm' is going to sticking out toward the rear seat.
> :::>:::>:::Grab the hinge area and pull or push toward the front of the van
> :::>:::>:::Bingo! up it goes.
> :::>:::>::: Essentially you are creating a second arm like the one
> :::>:::>:::already installed only this one is already almost open, giving
> :::better
> :::>:::>:::mechanical leverage.
> :::>:::>:::Your leverage is going to be better working on the horizontal
> :::where
> :::>:::>:::you can put your weight behind the effort, than it is pushing
> :::upward
> :::>:::>:::and carrying the entire load on your back and arm muscles.
> :::>:::>::: The pole collapses/folds to 4 foot long and stores up
> :::above
> :::>:::on
> :::>:::>:::the bed.
> :::>:::>:::
> :::>:::>:::It's just a start but I'll do better after my 4 cups of coffee
> :::>:::>:::tomorrow morning. ;-)
> :::>:::>:::
> :::>:::>::: David (dsl82westy)
> :::>:::>:::
> :::>:::>:::~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> :::~~~~
> :::>:::~~~~
>
>
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