Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:22:56 -0800
Reply-To: Philip Zimmerman <philzimm1@OBERON.ARK.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Philip Zimmerman <philzimm1@OBERON.ARK.COM>
Subject: Re: Any New Battery Technology
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Hi Folks,
Thanks for your replies, insights and links.
I took liberties and re-posted the salient/succulent
parts of each at the end of this post.
Joel, Jim, Todd & John are on to something. Part of
their scheme attracts the Luddite in me. I am partial
to pottery. Looks great in the Westie. That super-
charged vinegar/pickle-juice is perhaps the miracle
substance battery researchers' are looking for?
With a bit of zombie-marketing, might just be the
next Bill Gatesmania, Ken mentioned?
Malcolm's link to Mark's Li-ion post drove me to the
archives myself. Sheeze, where did Mark go? The Li-ion's
are Ok. Really Hybrid Li-Polymers (more voodoo).
Major $$$ and how to charge them in a Van?
Ken & Loren motivated me to read. Re-visit old stuff,
come away with perhaps a renewed view-point or position.
Battery-U's Isidor Buchmann, wrote in part: "As awkward
and unreliable the early batteries may have been, our
descendants may one day look at today's technology in
a similar way to how we view our predecessors' clumsy
experiments of 200 years ago". Enough to say, I am
satisfied with the Li-ion in my laptop and do not
want to replace it with say, a Carbon-Zinc battery.
Wet-cell reliability has matured well, many of us on
this list purport 5,6 & 7 years out of a starting Bat.
Contrast that to 25 years ago, how long did a starting
battery last? Incrimental change and improvement are
the words used in most of what I read here. Worth
mentioning, advances in current-draw reduction have
out-paced battery-densities by many magnitudes. Makes
todays batteries "look good"..... 8-)
The so-called Hybrid-Car with its "battery-pack" is sure
pushing the industry. Nickel-batteries
are the only battery that will offer a guarantee that
fulfills the 5-7 year warrantees that buyers demand.
Conflicting needs & wants really confuse this market-place.
Hybrid Li-Polymers appear to be about ready to enter into
the Hybrid-Car market so I read. Three times the capacity
at only double the weight-gain. As Hybrids, both car and
battery, many remain cynical, isn't this how we got the
Mule... from horse and donkey experiments?
That nuclear battery Loren posted is way-cool. Wow,
300W Electrical/4400W Thermal output! A radioisotope
thermoelectric generator; replace the heater, run
Fridge/AC, pre-heat WBX, make hot water, etc. Gotta
get rid of all that excess heat in a Vanagon somehow.
While restricted to NASA/Govt omega-budget projects,
does show promising possibilities.
Not too radio-actively dirty either!
In 1977 I held the first Li-ion cell.
It would still discharge at -30 C. But real prone to burning
up if mistreated. In 1991 Sony released a consumer Li-ion cell.
In 2007, 30 years have passed. That 1977 $50 research cell
I held, can now be purchased for around $3.00....
Incrimental in deed. No holy-grail found!
Phil Z.
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Reply-To: Malcolm Stebbins <mwstebbins@YAHOO.COM>
How about this from the archives:
> From: Mark C <obeechi@RUNBOX.COM>
> Subject: lithium ion deep cycle batteries
> http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp
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Reply-To: Kenneth Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
Electric cars were some of the very first to be invented.
However the battery still remains virtually the same
for the past one hundred years. We need a
cheap, light, non-toxic and quickly charging battery
to make the electric car a real viable thing.
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Reply-To: joel walker <jwalker17@EARTHLINK.NET>
i heard, on good authority, that the pottery jugs with vinegar are
making a comeback. :)
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Reply-To: Jim Felder <felder@KNOLOGY.NET>
I've heard that, too. There's also a hybrid model that burns lamp oil
when the zinc ingots give out. And for protection, these new vinegar-
powered rolling amphorae will project Greek Fire onto tailgaters.
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Reply-To: Loren Busch <starwagen@GMAIL.COM>
For the very reasons Ken talks about below don't hold your breath.
The only real advance was the fuel cell but not practical, only
for specialized applications and situations.
RE: New Batteries
I forgot to mention one modern solution, the Nuclear Battery.
More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_Thermoelectric_Generator
In use in many places around the globe and in space.
I don't know how small you can make one of these things but would be a
hoot
to put one under the back seat......
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From: Todd Last <rubatoguy@COMCAST.NET>
I think you want something like this for flaming tailgaters
http://www.hotlicksexhaust.com/
It should give you a blast back to the '50's when this first was
popular.
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From: Jim Felder <felder@KNOLOGY.NET>
Way too cool, but eerily reminds me of a vanagon with rotting gas
lines.
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From: John Rodgers <inua@CHARTER.NET>
Shhhhuuuush! Joel,
Being a potter, I already have the new pots for the task
made up and in process. The vinegar from the vats has greater
energy potential. And with that energy from the cucs absorbed into
the vinegars in chemical reaction, the vinegar has greater
energy potential than ordinary vinegar, and thus greater energy
transfers for the purpose of generating electricity for
powering the van with the new pottery jug/vinegar powered engine.
So don't let the word get out on the details just yet.
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