Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:38:23 -0800
Reply-To: "Mike \"Rocket J Squirrel\" Elliott" <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "Mike \"Rocket J Squirrel\" Elliott" <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: was fav 12 V acc, now 2nd battery relay system
In-Reply-To: <45DC893E.4010404@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Well I'll be hornswoggled. You're the one that turned me on to the
120-901 in the first place. Okay then, 1315 + relay vs relay alone, the
draw on the charging system is gonna be about the same if a fellow
engages the bridge. So for folk that use solar or other wimpy sources,
charging the engine battery should be done with an eye on available current.
As Mike C. points out, the 1315 will not connect the aux battery to the
starting battery/charging source (alternator) unless the voltage on the
starting battery is at least 13.2 volts.
In comparison, the relay system operating off the ALT light will connect
the aux battery when the ALT light goes out. Mike sez the light goes out
"when the alternator is putting out to the primary battery," but I'm
still not clear on what exactly this means. When current is going into
the battery?
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
KG6RCR
On 2/21/2007 10:02 AM Mark Drillock wrote:
> Guess what? The 1315 uses the Stancor 120-901 as it's relay. That is why
> I say the 1315 is a relay setup. It just piggybacks a small control
> module to it. I have one of each on my desk.
>
> I have been talking up the Stancor 120-901 on the list for about 10
> years. If there was a store you could walk into and buy one I'm sure
> many more would use them. The stores all sell those metal torpedo type
> relays, not the right packaging for vanagon installations.
>
> I am expecting an out of town listee to stop over for a visit around
> 11:00 am. You are welcome as well.
>
> Mark
>
> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott wrote:
>
>> Good point about manually bridging the two batteries when charging off
>> something like solar which can't necessarily provide a lot of current.
>> You mention a small current drain when a relay system is used --
>> presumably by the relay energizing coil? This caveat might also apply
>> to the 1315: if I read the literature for the 1315 correctly, it uses
>> a solenoid, which when used to close contacts is a relay. So the
>> question is whether the 1315's solenoid coil draws any more current
>> than the relay.
>>
>> Mellow Yellow's bridging relay is a Stancor 120-901, a 100-amp jobbie
>> which has a coil resistance of 16 ohm. That's a 0.8A load @ 12V, which
>> could be significant when using solar to charge. But I can't find how
>> much current the 1315's coil draws, so I have no way to compare the
>> two. If anyone who has a 1315 handy and an ohmmeter, and isn't afraid
>> to use it, then
>>
>> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
>> 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
>> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
>> 74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
>> KG6RCR
>>
>> On 2/21/2007 8:44 AM Mark Drillock wrote:
>>
>>> I agree. A proper relay setup is great, just like VW decided when
>>> they fitted so many Vanagons with 2 batteries using a simple relay
>>> system.
>>>
>>> The SurePower 1315 is also great, but it is a relay system as well
>>> after all. I have installed and used some 1315 setups but for my
>>> personal vehicles a plain high capacity relay setup works fine. The
>>> 1315 is simpler to connect but not by that much. The 1315 can usually
>>> fit down in the battery compartment along side a stock size battery,
>>> as do the relay models I prefer.
>>>
>>> The 1315 has advantages over a plain relay for a couple subsets of
>>> Vanagon owners, mostly Subaru conversion folk as the Subaru
>>> alternator does not work perfectly with the VW dash led and relay
>>> control circuits. It also works well for people who have a secondary
>>> charging system such as a shore power battery charger. The 1315 will
>>> allow automatic charging of both batteries from a charger connected
>>> to either. It could also be used with solar panels but the small
>>> current drain needed by a relay system probably means a manual switch
>>> would be best for letting the panels charge both.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> Michael Elliott wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Frank, I'm not seeing any normal conditions where my relay system is
>>>> at a disadvantage when compared to the 1315. My starter battery is
>>>> always connected to the charging source, just like in a system using
>>>> the
>>>> 1315. My aux batter is connected to the starter battery/charging source
>>>> under only two conditions:
>>>>
>>>> 1. The alternator is putting out enough voltage to extinguish the dash
>>>> ALT lamp. What's that -- 13 volts or more? Bridging the aux battery to
>>>> the starter battery under these conditions is appropriate unless the
>>>> aux
>>>> battery has suffered a major failure, in which case all bets are off
>>>> with my system.
>>>>
>>>> 2. I have operated a switch to manually bridge the aux battery to the
>>>> starter battery/charging source by applying voltage from the aux
>>>> battery
>>>> to the relay coil. This would be done in the case where the starter
>>>> battery is low and I need to steal some power from the aux battery to
>>>> pump up the starter battery. There also should be no problem unless the
>>>> starter battery has suffered a major failure.
>>>>
>>>> I did use the phrase "normal conditions" in my opening paragraph, and I
>>>> noted above two unusual conditions which involve the near or total
>>>> meltdown of one or both batteries. In the situation where the aux
>>>> battery was hosed, the 1315 would allow a fellow to keep driving
>>>> because
>>>> it would refuse to connect the bad battery, whereas my system has no
>>>> such safeguard. If the starter battery is low, both systems allow a
>>>> fellow to bridge the aux to it for starting, but if the starter battery
>>>> was massively failed neither system would help.
>>>>
>>>> The 1315 does not require metering: it appears to be smart enough to
>>>> not
>>>> connect ugly-dead batteries to the system. So that's an advantage --
>>>> but
>>>> to me, not much of one because I like meters -- even with a 1315 I'd
>>>> monitor battery voltage.
>>>>
>>>> So, unless I'm missing something, the 1315 only provides two advantages
>>>> over the relay system: no-brainer operation (always useful when you
>>>> have
>>>> a squirrel's brain) and it refuses to connect a hosed aux battery.
>>>> Those
>>>> two may be advantages enough for some folk to recommend the 1315 to
>>>> them, but to say that "relay systems work but not well," is a bit much.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
>>>> 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
>>>> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
>>>> 74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
>>>> KG6RCR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Frank Condelli typed:
>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 20/02/2007 3:11:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>>>> LISTSERV@GERRY.VANAGON.COM writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> Using the Sure Power 1315 Battery Separator solves all your
>>>>> problems. The
>>>>> batteries are NEVER, NEVER, EVER, connected to one another.
>>>>> That's the
>>>>> whole
>>>>> point of using the Sure Power device ! We've been over this a
>>>>> gazillion
>>>>> times if not more ! Relay systems work but not well, isolator
>>>>> systems
>>>>> work a
>>>>> little better but still not correct.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> OOPS ! Big screw up here ! Now's it's me giving out false
>>>>> information. My
>>>>> good friend Mike brought this to my attention. After re-reading the
>>>>> document that comes with the Sure power 1315 I see that the two
>>>>> batteries are indeed
>>>>> connected together under two circumstances. One, when the aux
>>>>> start feature
>>>>> is connected and the main battery is found to be below the level of
>>>>> the aux
>>>>> battery at starting then the aux battery is connected to the main
>>>>> battery to
>>>>> aid in starting the vehicle. Two, when both batteries reach a
>>>>> charge of 13 ~
>>>>> 13.5 volts, both battery banks are connected together. Sorry for
>>>>> propagating false information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank Condelli
>>>>> Almonte, Ontario, Canada
>>>>> '87 Westy, '90 Carat, '87 Wolfsburg (Forsale) & Lionel Trains
>>>>> (_Collection
>>>>> for sale_ (http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/trainsal.htm) )
>>>>> Vanagon/Vanagon Westfalia Service in the Ottawa Valley
>>>>> _Frank Condelli & Associates_
>>>>> (http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/busindex.html)
>>>>> _Vanagon Stainless Steel Exhaust Systems_
>>>>> (http://members.aol.com/Fkc43/stebro.htm)
>>>>> _BusFusion_ (http://members.aol.com/BusFusion/bfhome.htm) a VW Camper
>>>>> camping event, Almonte, ON, June 07 ~ 10, 2007
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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