Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:25:54 -0400
Reply-To: Sam Conant <samcvt@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Sam Conant <samcvt@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Beware EBAY LVC was: Re: eBay Professor for Vanagon parts ...
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Without a doubt! But the "syndrome" isn't unique to EBay. Ask any retail
or wholesale for commercial entity's customer service manager for anecdotes
of their experience with customers. Many years ago, I was one for Sears -
in another state out in the Mid-West, and gave away many thousands of
dollars of replace equipment and free follow up services as a result of
complaining (and some were bogus) from customers. Our policy (and I guess
it still is the policy of that corporation) was to guarantee product
satisfaction without question.
Sam Conant
----- Original Message -----
From: "VW Doka" <vw.doka@GMAIL.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Beware EBAY LVC was: Re: eBay Professor for Vanagon parts ...
> Wes,
>
> The problem is that "feedback retaliation" works both ways. If a vendor
> was
> required to submit feedback after payment, he could be held hostage by the
> buyer (ask me how I know) for a discount or partial refund. And I can
> guarantee you that there are just as many (more) unscrupulous buyers as
> sellers on eBay.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]On Behalf
> Of Wesley Pegden
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 6:07 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Beware EBAY LVC was: Re: eBay Professor for Vanagon parts
> ...
>
>
> I couldn't agree more with your comments about revenge feedback. It
> hasn't happened to me, but I've noticed that sellers use it as a
> tactic. If ebay was interested in improving their policies, they could
> simply require sellers to submit feedback first (i.e., immediately upon
> receiving prompt payment) but instead they'd rather prop up the scores
> of bad sellers so they can push more total transactions and get more
> commissions.
>
> One tactic you can use to spot this is to scour the feedback page for
> instances of ratings "mutually withdrawn". I always consider this a big
> red flag, especially if when I go to the other users page, I see that
> the seller left the kind of BS retaliatory feedback he left for Jeff.
>
> I agree with BJ's message; there are undoubtedly some great sellers on
> ebay. I think they are the exception, but nevertheless, it can be
> possible to find them. I still buy things on ebay, but I steer clear of
> the feedback retaliators.
>
> -Wes
>
> Jeff Oxroad wrote:
>> Agreed, Beware of Vanagon parts and VW stuff on Ebay as a general rule.
> eBay
>> is a haven for scheisters, and eBay corporate policy encourages consumer
> rip
>> offs.
>>
>> And I realize there are honest sellers on eBay and I would encourage
>> those
>> honest eBayers, both buyers and sellers, to encourage eBay to adjust it's
> system
>> that benefits dishonest sellers. I realize it won't happen, but I'm just
>> saying...
>>
>> I occasionally use eBay, and only in dollar amounts I can afford to lose,
> and
>> often do.
>>
>> On a total of 20 purchases over about 6 years I have been cheated on 3
> items,
>> maybe 4. You will find Ebay has no interest and no means to help in these
>> situations.
>>
>> In one case I bought some Genuine VW videotapes featuring sales tips for
> the
>> Vanagon. They never arrived. I never heard from the seller. I was out
> about
>> $25. eBay told me they could do nothing, but I could contact the FBI
>> since
> I had
>> made a payment through the US Mail, and the FBI would likely investigate
>> since Mail Fraud is a Federal Offense. eBay also suggested I use one of
> their PAY
>> arbitration and mediation sites-- for about $25 these firms will look
>> into
>> your problem with no guarantee of resolution.
>>
>> I hate to be old fashioned. But really, am I gonna call in the FBI on $25
> on
>> ebay?
>>
>> Without going into all the details the other bad situations where similar
> and
>> included Genuine VW parts that were not Genuine VW. Another guy had a
> brand
>> new "H" connector for off the expansion tank on the 1.9L which was
>> clearly
> old
>> and used when it arrive. He took a return of the product. He was "sure"
>> it
> was
>> new. I lost out on shipping costs.
>>
>> eBay considers someone misrepresenting a product and taking it back on
>> return, with the shipping cost the responsibility of the bilked buyer, a
> "positive
>> experience". This because the seller refunded the cost minus shipping two
> ways
>> for a misrepresented item. The short is, lying is encouraged as such. It
> cost
>> the lying buyer nothing but the time and he could now relist the item for
> some
>> other sucker.
>>
>> My most recent transaction was with a seller with over 3000 sales on ebay
> and
>> 99% positive feedback. When he sent me a repro VW part not as advertised
> and
>> in fact unusable I left him negative feedback. He had also had some shady
>> payment practices and was a real jerk to deal with. I lost $25 on this
> transaction.
>>
>> So I leave the negative feedback which was simply and honest: "low
>> quality
>> ill-fitting repro part". I now have just learned about what is casually
> referred
>> to as "revenge feedback". After leaving him the appropriate negative
>> feedback, the seller left me feedback which was "Illiterate moron. left
> negative
>> feedback on perfect item. Beware when dealing with this guy." or
>> something
> close to
>> that.
>>
>> I don't sell on ebay, but I do know that the threat that a buyer or
>> seller
> is
>> brave enough to leave negative feedback is a very negative concept for
> those
>> who rely on their feedback ratings to lure in buyers or sellers.
>>
>> So after this false negative feedback (well, you could argue I AM a
>> moron)
>> the seller applies for a mediation which is an agreement with the buyer
> and
>> seller to mutually withdraw each persons feedback to the other. I've just
> found by
>> a google search this is common practice on eBay. And it keeps
>> unscrupulous
>> sellers from having ANY negative feedback. I don't want the negative
> feedback he
>> left me so I'm inclined to agree to the "mediation" and mutual
>> withdrawal.
>> The Seller would then still have his 99% positive feedback rating and no
>> negative marks.
>>
>> eBay also refuses to get involved in feedback issues, unless both parties
> are
>> willing to withdraw their feedback. eBay has no policy about what
>> feedback
>> may include with the exception of a person's name, address, or profane
> language.
>> So any personal insults or untruths are completely tolerated and I would
>> argue promoted since there is no consequence.
>>
>> It's a sellers market. If you notice almost ALL sellers on ebay have
>> above
> a
>> 90% positive feedback rating and most in the high 90s%. In what amateur
> mail
>> order world is it likely that so many people are constantly satisfied and
>> overjoyed with the used crap they receive?
>>
>> And high 90s is certainly a good enough reason to do business with a
> seller
>> if the rating were in any way based in reality. But with honest ebayers
>> in
> fear
>> of losing their positive feedback ratings through untrue revenge
>> feedback,
>> I'm sure they opt not to leave negative feedback for anyone in many
>> cases.
>>
>> And yes, my bad for dealing with eBay at all. I send this to share one
>> key
>> reason the eBay deck is stacked against an honest person. Ebay makes
>> money
> on
>> the sales whether dishonest or not, so has no want to curb the
> dishonest--except
>> for conscience. And I did mention it's an American corporation, didn't I.
> So
>> conscience isn't really a player.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jeff
>> 83.5 Westy
>> LA, CA
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 6/24/2007 1:36:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>> samcvt@COMCAST.NET writes:
>>
>> that there are a fairly large group of "sellers" on Ebay, whose ethics
>> and
>> sense of values are not particularly credible.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ************************************** See what's free at
> http://www.aol.com.
>>
>>
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