Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 15:55:01 -0400
Reply-To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sudden head gasket coolant catastrophic leaking
In-Reply-To: <46912CF8.2070109@phas.ubc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
There is a lot of speculation going on here. I have had the outer gasket
split a few times. The reasons most likely are as follows:
Bad gasket! Yes, this is a molded product. Material contamination,
temperature control, whatever.
Poor installation technique or corrosion, most likely on the case side
pinching the gasket. Also, if the gasket sealer starts to set before the
head is installed and torqued down. The can be a real problem with the
Right Stuff. Once the sealer hardens, it will not compress and the added
pressure will cause the gasket to later split. The directions say assemble
within 5 minutes.
Due to the gasket design, internal system pressure was not the cause of
failure. It sucks that it has to be done again but it should go fairly
quick as everything is not rusted in place. Don't beat yourself up to
much.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
Thomas Pfrommer
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 2:29 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Sudden head gasket coolant catastrophic leaking
Thanks for all the information!
I don't think i forgot the inner head gasket, David, I was very careful
when I put the heads on, plus we were two people to see as four eyes
always see more than two ;-). So just doing the same thing again does
not seem to be the right thing now.
Also when I put the heads on, I made sure that I compressed the tubes
equally and in a manner, so that the top of the gasket was not tight too
much, compared to the bottom. The leak is anyway not at the top, but
midway from top top bottom at the rear end of the head.
You are certainly right that I must have had a huge pressure inside the
cooling chamber. Thats why I have to unfortunately consider the crack
option as the reason. However when I opened the lid just after I stopped
the car, i did not realize any combustion smell, just burned coolant ....
Or if there is no crack, the sudden pressure rise is caused by a coolant
system fault.
Perhaps I got a bit of air into the cooling system, when he first cap
leaked a bit (I only had to top up the exp tank by about 1"), and I
should have bled the system again. if then air was in the cooling
system, that might have rose the pressure in this head, or as you said
perhaps the new cap was faulty and did not open when the pressure rose.
I will check the cap.
Is there a possibility to see if I had combustion leaking into the
cooling system, when I open the head? Are there any traces? How would I
examine the head without having ultrasound or x-ray or whatever
diagnostic you guys use for examine a head? It looked really good though
before installing. Now, with this failure, would the crack be visible?
Please not, this failure came suddenly, without any notice after I drove
already about 35 minutes, 25 stop and go in town and then 10 minutes
highway at 3000rpm.
Anyway I will try to phone the Bug shop, to see if they can help, its
unfortunate, but I can't do it now by myself, I guess....
Thanks guys for all you great help!
Thomas
Bob Donalds wrote:
> Fellow vanagon types
>
> Benny is correct this is a classic problem with the WBX engine outer
> cylinder head coolant gaskets. The failure of the rubber gaskets can
> happen
> in the first few hundred miles or right away. I had this happen twice
> in my
> many years first was early on just after start up and second was a guy
> that
> blew both at once. I bring both up to make the point that there could
> be two
> reasons for the failure. The way the head is installed is important to
> prevent side loading of the gasket by this I mean that the gasket can be
> pushed sideways as the head contacts the gasket due to the push rod
> tubes.
> The tubes prevent the head from squarely engaging the head so the head
> as it
> contacts the gaskets tend to go sideways. The most common location for
> the
> gasket to pop out is the top of the block this is the first place the
> head
> contacts the gasket and the direction the head is pushed.
>
> To eliminate the gasket side loading we at the Engine Exchange have
> for
> many years preformed a technique called the hokey pokey ( See your
Bosch
> automotive hand book for a full description of this term ) After the
> heads
> is prepped and placed on the studs with the tubes in place I watch to
see
> that the inner gaskets remain in place. With one nut on the middle lower
> studs I bring the head into contact with the gasket and adjust the
> push rod
> tubes as I go. Once the head is in place but not tight against the
> gasket I
> perform the (hokey pokey) wiggling of the head giving the gasket a
> chance to
> find its place without any preload sideways. I then slowly tighten the
> nuts
> in an even fashion. I only use the OEM style sealants provided in the
> Victor
> Rintz gaskets the one with the blue cardboard backing.
>
> The second reason I think new outer gasket fail is a sudden extreme
> rise in
> pressure this is when the coolant system is not full and the expanding
> air
> takes its toll.
>
> The cracks between the seats can and do go much further than the eye
> can see
> on OEM heads extending into the intake and exhaust ports. This is the
> primary reason I stopped repairing OEM heads they crack and recrack in
> the
> ports days and weeks after the heads are put back into service.
>
> One final note
> the new AMC heads should not be used as they come out of the box they
> need
> professional attention to insure full service life
> I offer these heads with all the updates for the same money or less
> than you
> will find them on the net @ $450 each
> fluffed, buffed and ready to be stuffed
>
> standing by I remain
>
> Bob Donalds
> Boston Engine
> where you get more than engines and engine parts
>
>
> all rights reserved
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Pfrommer" <pfrommer@PHAS.UBC.CA>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 12:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Sudden head gasket coolant catastrophic leaking
>
>
>> I sent them out for inspection and if necessary, machining. One little
>> hair crack was welded/machined between the valves, but not at the
>> failure position of the gasket. I don't recall, whether it was the left
>> or right though any more.
>> Other than this hair, the heads were in good shape.
>> I used the VW gasket set, and the head gaskets from there. Together
with
>> this black paste, I put them together, don't recall now the name, but
>> will find tomorrow.
>> Does the classic problem occur also that late after a rebuilt?
>> Well anyway it seems I did not seal this head very well.
>> Thanks for the help
>> Thomas
>>
>> Benny boy wrote:
>>> What did you use between head gasket and head?
>>> How was the old head before you put this one back in? Was it
>>> cracked, was
>>> it
>>> tested?
>>>
>>> 2 reasons, bad sealing or bad/cracked head, period.
>>>
>>> A clasic problem!
>>>
>>> Ben
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 16:54:21 -0700, Thomas Pfrommer
>>> <pfrommer@PHAS.UBC.CA>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> oh man, I thought my van is running now. Did it for about 1500km, but
>>>> today suddenly lost all its coolant, luckily a guy behind me on the
>>>> highway called my attention right away. I did not see anything and
the
>>>> water temp did not yet rise. Well I pulled over the next exit. Again
>>>> lucky was only 500m away, and then the temp gauge was rising
>>>> quickly. So
>>>> to the next parking lot and shut down the engine before it overheats!
>>>> But what the hack was going on? Temp was always good, never reved it
>>>> above 3000 rpm in these first 1500km. Oil pressure was good (yes the
>>>> installed oil gauge is working fine ;-))
>>>> And suddenly I loose all my water. After waiting to let the engine
>>>> cool
>>>> down a bot, I was able to look and lie underneath the engine and saw
>>>> that the head gasket was pushed out for about 0.5 inch and thats
where
>>>> it leak. I added a bit of distilled water in the expansion tank and
it
>>>> pulled out right away right at this point (at the rear end of the
>>>> right
>>>> head, about midway between top and bottom of the head). What could
>>>> have
>>>> happened? When I rebuilt the engine, I torqued the heads to the specs
>>>> indicated in the Bentley. I inspected the studs and they did not
>>>> seem to
>>>> be in bad shape so I did not replace them. Is this an indication that
>>>> one stud broke? Yesterday I drove and was in a traffic jam and it was
>>>> very hot, but everything worked fine, the water temp never rose more
>>>> then just above the light position.
>>>> I don't know but thats kind of weired. Perhaps not for you experts,
>>>> but
>>>> for me, as it drove without problems up to this point. I changed the
>>>> expansion head cap just two days before as well, and all water was
in,
>>>> not indication of a small leak anywhere.
>>>> Well I am quite frustrated now, I must admit, just thought I let you
>>>> know, perhaps you have some advice. The thing is I do not have much
>>>> time
>>>> now to fix this major thing. I am quite busy at work. Do you
Vancouver
>>>> guys have a good recommendation, where to put it? I let it tow to
>>>> Blenheim at 12th/Arbutus, just because I heard they are very nice
>>>> guys.
>>>> So I assume they don't rip me off. But perhaps there are other
places?
>>>> Anyway have a nice week-end and enjoy the sun, I have to recover a
bit
>>>> form this disappointment today though.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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