Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:53:53 -0700
Reply-To: Joseph Fortino <fortino1@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Joseph Fortino <fortino1@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: ECU and starting question
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
nah man knowledge is just what you typed.. i like this it helps all understand
that we are driving 30 year computers with issues.. hehe
Thanks for the reply :)
Joe 85 gl
-----Original Message-----
>From: David Kao <dtkao0205@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Jul 17, 2007 7:43 PM
>To: Joseph Fortino <fortino1@EARTHLINK.NET>, vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>Subject: Re: ECU and starting question
>
>That's entirely possible. Normally the ECU is quite reliable. It uses an old Intel
>Z80 cpu inside (there may be different versions with different CPUS) and an EPROM
>with a small memory size. There are a few power transistors inside that may be
>more prone to break down. It is a 30 year old technology but quite durable.
>
>I had 2 or 3 ECU boards that I acquired for research purposes. The hardware is
>very basic and simple. The trick is in the program. I used to write assembly code
>for Z80. If I have the source code I can still do it. It is plain simple and reliable.
>
>Today's modern ECUs with OBD2 is a different beast. It's better to leave it alone.
>The ECU is designed to prvent any attempt of tempering. Imagine if it can be easily
>tempered there would be no need of smog check, which tracks error code if any exists.
>Just reset it and go ahead to get the smog check done. It does not work like that.
>If you reset the error code the smog check system will know it has been reset.
>The emission check will be rejected instantly.
>
>Sorry if this bores you out. This is really NVC, just like some Subi talks. If you
>have newer cars and have trouble with OBD2 we can talk about it.
>
>David
>
>--- Joseph Fortino <fortino1@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
>
>> I found that my bad ECU awhile back was flooding the plugs with gas.. causing starting issues..
>>
>> Joe 85gl
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: most david <dmost@YAHOO.COM>
>> >Sent: Jul 17, 2007 5:48 PM
>> >To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> >Subject: Re: ECU and starting question
>> >
>> >I'll check, but I think that the pulley is in good shape (i.e., no wobble).
>> >
>> >Is the problem with your '87 intermittenet, or does the fuel pump simply never get power?
>> >
>> >----- Original Message ----
>> >From: Anthony Kimmons <akimmons@GMAIL.COM>
>> >To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 3:39:48 PM
>> >Subject: Re: ECU and starting question
>> >
>> >
>> >Having a similar issue with my 87. No power to fuel pump, but wires
>> >are good and there is power at the relay. Today, while waiting for new
>> >relays to ship though, I noticed that my alternator pulley was
>> >wobbling badly. Pulled it apart and noticed that the wobbling had
>> >completely messed up one of the contacts on the regulator. Ordered a
>> >new alternator today. Wondering if this could be the cause of the fuel
>> >pump not getting the power it needs (?). Any thoughts on this?
>> >
>> >
>> >On 7/17/07, most david <dmost@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> Hi David. Thanks so much for checking out the wiring diagrams. I've swapped the fuel pump
>> relay with a known working relay, and this didn't fix the problem. I'd like to check the
>> wiring, and, though I have a Bentley, I'm still learning (or trying to remember) how to read the
>> diagrams.
>> >>
>> >> Can anyone confirm if the 2.1 wiring ('87) is the same as the 1.9 description below (for my
>> purposes)?
>> >>
>> >> Meanwhile, if the engine always starts and runs well once the fuel pump gets initial power
>> upon turning the key, is it still possible that loose wires at the coil or the ignition module
>> could be causing the problem.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks again for the much needed help.
>> >>
>> >> David
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----
>> >> From: David Kao <dtkao0205@yahoo.com>
>> >> To: most david <dmost@YAHOO.COM>; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 3:08:20 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: ECU and starting question
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> David, I am not trying to race to answer your question. But I can't help it.
>> >>
>> >> I just looked at my Bentley manual at the electrical diagram. There are
>> >> two wires and one relay you want to check.
>> >>
>> >> The relay is naturally the fuel pump relay. Why two wires? one is supplying
>> >> power to the relay and the other supplies power to the switch controlled
>> >> by the relay. This switch if activated will power the pump. So if the pump
>> >> doesn't pump, either the relay is not getting the power or the switch controlled
>> >> by the relay is not getting power. These two wires are not connected together.
>> >> Each has its own connection to somewhere else.
>> >>
>> >> The wire that feeds power to the switch in the relay is directly connected to
>> >> the battery. It is always hot as long as the battery is connected. This is
>> >> shown on the diagram. This makes sense as you don't want fuel to be cut off
>> >> anytime you are driving.
>> >>
>> >> The wire that feeds power to the relay (which activates or deactivates the switch)
>> >> is coming from the pin #4 of the transistor ignition control module. This pin
>> >> also has a wire that connects itself to the ignition coil's terminal #15. On the
>> >> diagram the wire that feeds the switch in the relay comes from this #15 terminal
>> >> (instead of #4 on the ignition module). But they should be connected together
>> >> on the #15 terminal of the coil. The coil's #1 terminal also has another wire that
>> >> goes to the #1 pin of the ignition module.
>> >>
>> >> It looks like you may have a loose connection on the #15 terminal of the coil,
>> >> or you have a loose connection on pin #4 on the ignition module. It's not ECU.
>> >> But there are wires connecting the ECU and the ignition module. Still it's not
>> >> likely to be an ECU problem.
>> >>
>> >> If you have a Bentley manual this is on the diagram. Well, I am talking about
>> >> wasserboxer 1.9 engine. If you have a 2.1 it may be or many not be the same.
>> >> If you have a subi... Oops, forget it. Don't mean to go there. Pardon me. No humor
>> >> intended. Ask Benny if it is a subi.
>> >>
>> >> Hope this helps.
>> >>
>> >> David
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- most david <dmost@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I still haven't figured out why the fuel pump gets power intermittently when turning the
>> >> > ignition key. For those of you that didn't read my posts from the last couple of weeks,
>> I've
>> >> > checked the relays, replaced the ignition switch, and tested for power at the fuel pump.
>> When
>> >> > the fuel pump gets power, the engine starts every time and runs well.
>> >> >
>> >> > A local mechanic is convinced that the ECU is causing the problem based on my
>> characterization
>> >> > of the problem. I asked a second mechanic about this, and he didn't think that this was
>> likely.
>> >> > I then told the second mechanic that I'm able to start the engine by pushing the van and
>> >> > popping the clutch (on those rare occassions when turning the key on and off a number a of
>> times
>> >> > doesn't result in my hearing the fuel pump come on). Upon hearing this, the second
>> mechanic
>> >> > said that he's certain that the ECU isn't causing my problem.
>> >> >
>> >> > So, if I can start the engine by popping the clutch, does this definitely mean that the ECU
>> is
>> >> > not the source of my intermittent power at the fuel pump upon turning the key to the second
>> (not
>> >> > start) position?
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks for the help,
>> >> > David
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
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