Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 00:10:08 -0700
Reply-To: Nathan Mc Blain <nmcblain@YAHOO.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Nathan Mc Blain <nmcblain@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: exaust removal woes
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Craig,
That's a serious post man, really from the heart!! From my own long standing fight with depression, I know how important any joys are through the day, and how important your van is to you right now!!! Don't give up on what you want to do!! Try not to worry too much about the broken stud. Repairs have a way of eventually being fixed and can look worse than it really is. And remember, even experienced professionals like Ben, take much time to get broken studs out of corroded heads and parts!
I really want to help you out some how....at least put in my brain storm ideas, which is really just adding to everyones ideas already. If it's not quite right more experienced members correct me please.
I had the same thing happen when I was repairing my exhaust one of the studs broke off in the head. My neighbor helped me weld on a nut to have something to turn it with. Now that I went to a welding trade school, I can do it myself :) And doing it yourself, as you know, even if it takes a long time, gives you a heck of a lot of satisfaction, that can not be bought!
I haven't bought or used them but Sears sells a nice set of stud/screw extraction bits that bite into the stud/screw after a starting hole is made. I think this is much better than trying to drill out and collapse the stud, as perfect alignment even in a drill press, is very difficult to do. So now you need to make that starter hole.
I'm not familiar with EDM. But an experienced plasma cutting operator could probably blow a small hole in the center of that stud/drill bit. I took classes at the local ROP so you could try there if you have a welding shop class locally. If I had my own plasma machine I'd invite you over! Even a TIG machine could be used to slowly remove small amounts of metal for a hole, allowing to cool of course after very short periods of intense heat. Well...I guess those tools may not be accessible to you or easy to get your van to... Perhaps, with a center-punch, you could shatter a few small pieces of the broken bit out of the way, just enough so you could get the appropriate size extraction tool in there?
I've found that a SMALL amount of heat with a gas torch around the perimeter of the bolt/stud, not on or close to the bolt (you want to expand the metal the stud is in, not the stud itself) greatly helps in removing corroded and very tight bolts. Especially since aluminum, which the head is made of, has a much higher expansion to heat ratio than steel. Just use a little heat, not too much, you don't want to warp it.
So try to prepare the stud to accept an extraction tool and when all is ready to put torque on it to turn, I would apply a careful amount of heat around the exhaust stud with a gas torch. Even a cheap propane one you can buy at Home Depot will work fine. After it is warmed up, work fast before the heat equalizes and expands the stud too. Of course it would be much easier to do it with the head out and on your bench. But then you have a whole new project to reseal it! With a good pair of ramps, the rear end in the air, and a creeper (preferably one with a raised headrest, I'm spoiled now :)) you would have enough room to work.
That's all I can think of for now, hope something here will be helpful for you, I'll sleep on it and let you know if anything else comes to mind. And no matter if you use zinc plated crap studs or 316 stainless bolts, use anti-seize lub. before you reinstall!!
Nate
1990 Flash Silver non-GL
Orange County, Ca
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:06:26 -0400
From: craig cowan <phishman068@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: exaust removal woes
I was thinking long and hard all day today as to what it is i'm to do
to dig
myself out of this hole. And i was graced by a meeting of fellow
vanagon
owners....and it made me wonder "why you do it".
I thought i'd share my story of why i love vanagons, and why my bus
needs a
new heart. If your bored, read on. If your not.....don't, you don't
have
time. Stop right here and go be busy. Have a good day.
I appreciate the sudgestions, help, and most importantly time. I am in
a
very horrible predicament to say the least. I've been leaning towards a
subaru conversion since the day i found out what a vanagon was (ya, i
litereally bought one without EVER seeing one in real life and just
knew
"they have engine problems, the subaru fits right and adds power"). As
of
tuesday, its been exactly one year since i bought my vanagon. I have
driven
it roughly 1000 miles in that time period, 90% of which was in the
first
month. It worked very well for the first month, then died all at once.
Now
i'm in the predicament of my life. I am a recent highschool graduate
who
plans to attend slippery rock university of PA next year which is about
an
hour from my house. I was told i can keep a car up there assuming its
the
vanagon (parental incentive to make it work). I spend all my free time
(Literally ALL of it) either on the list, or tinkering with my
bus.....but
nothing will fix the problems at hand. I work 10-12 hour days 6 days a
week
at slightly above minimum wage just to try to save enough money to put
a
conversion together, and i might be getting a "night job" at a body
shop
which wont pay....but will allow me to work off the required work that
my
bus desperately needs (rust is eating it!). I simply cannot afford to
pay to
get this thing working, yet cannot justify putting a $4K engine
conversion
into a $2K car that has been imobile for 9 months. At this point, i'm
working solely to feed my love of vanagons, i spend no money, have no
free
time, and come home exausted.....but with the ambitions to start
ANOTHER
job. Why do i do it?
That question has come up more times than i'd like to count. But i sure
wish
there was a nickel or dime every time....because i'd be rockin a SVX
powered
Syncro Westy at this point!
I somehow fell in love with vanagons all at once. A pal had one stashed
under a tarp rotting behind their house, and offered to sell it to me.
I had
a love for VW busses, had no idea there were different models, and went
home
that night and searched "1988 Volkswagon Bus Water-Cooled" based on the
knowledge i had and what he had told me. Needless to say, it was
horribly
unsuccessful. Over the next week i devoted every waking moment of my
time to
researching these beasts untill i convinced my parents to come take a
look
at it. At this point in my life i was suffering from sever depression
and in
constant pain from a recent car accident.....i was not recovering well
and
they saw the first smile i'd had in a long time. This alone made them
willing to buy their first foreign car, their first stick shift car,
their
first "old" car, and their first rusty car all at once, to allow (and
teach)
a highschool junior to drive....because it was a dream of his. I will
never
cease to be amazed by that selfless act. I had little mechanical
understanding, i had no ambition to actually "do anything" with the
car,
couldnt drive stick.....COULDNT EVEN DRIVE. I would go outside and sit
in
it, i'd go read a book in it.....i was in constant pain and would
emerge
from my silver lair with a bright smile on my face, the world knew that
somehow....this "PIECE OF SHIT" made me happy, and it was the only
thing
that would! They used it to motivate me to get good grades, they used
it to
motivate me to continue my recovery process, they motivated me in more
ways
than i'll ever understand. I had no job and would survive year to year
on
MAYBE $500 that i would find through holidays, birthday money, and
occassional yard work.......and yet i was always volunteering to sink
every
cent of it into the car. They never let me.
The point is, the line has been drawn. From this point forward, they
are no
longer happy with the vehicle, they are no longer willing to support
the
cause, as it hardly motivates me do to its lack of motion (though i've
heard
my parents telling their friends about the smile they see on my face
when
its driven by me!) I'm working my ass off and trying to make money in
all
the available odd jobs, but it limits my time to work on it. I am
reaching
the point where i can afford to get some work done, but an ambitious
head
replacement (would do both sides probably) is not
economical.....especially
knowing the fuel-injection system is less than amazing and i know there
are
problems. This problem wont fix it, it still wont be "working" the way
its
supposed to. I'm trying my hardest not to give up, but its getting
hard.
I figured out how to cook rice and tea REALLY well and taught myself to
love
um, so thats all i eat and drink at work (I Figured out it saved me
$100 a
week!!! From the first few weeks of going out to lunch and dinner,
buying
drinks, etc). I dont sleep much (no time!) and when i do.....i dream
about a
Volksagen bus and how beautiful and proud it will stand when freshly
repainted, running a subaru 2.2, and my interior customizing is
complete.
People are telling me now that its more practical for me to try to cut
my
losses, sell the bus, and buy one in better shape for say $4K or
$5K......but i would loose all this. I just cant do it. I love this bus
like
i've never loved anything else in my short life. My boss/head of our
service
department knows that, knows i wont be able to pay the bill....and
knows hes
going to take a loss. My fellow highschool seniors took up a
collection!
(Pretty unscucessful, but its the thought that counts, we had bracelets
that
said "Make a difference") Its well known that i'd sell a kidney to get
a
conversion, but know that my liver and kidneys may get a good workout
in the
near future as a freshman in college. I have total strangers who know
me as
"the bus man"......its the only one in my area. I am so unbelievably
proud
of my work so far and would love to continue it.
I just thought i'd have to share my story of "WHY I DO IT". I know
there are
some on the list that will hate it, they'll say it somehow doesnt deal
with
vanagons and we should stick to "what tires are the best" (My hankook
RA08s
have held up well for all 10 miles ive been able to put on them!), but
i
dont care. I know some of you have similar loves for these cars, some
of you
dont. To some of you, its a car that you can take to the home depot on
saturdays. To me, its hope, its a smile. Deal with it.
Theres no point to this, i just hope my struggle can give hope to
someone
else. Stick with it. Thank you all for your help so far, even those of
you
who have no idea who i am or why i'm writing this. I may not be a
famous
name like "Bob Donalds" "Benny Boy" or "The Bus Depot", but i'm trying
my
best and know that someday....i'll have a bus that will make Benny Boy
say
"See, there are TWO good looking '85's in the world!!"
I hope your day goes very very well, all of you. Thats the best i can
do.
I'd give you all a hug, a shake of hand, you all deserve it. But thats
simply the best i can do. When i'm a rich man, you'll all get a
worthers-original mailed to your door for the rediculous cost of
postage,
but for now....just have a nice day!
-Craig Cowan
1985 Vanagon GL converted to custom Camper
On 7/14/07, Bob Donalds <donalds1@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> I use a shop in Santa ana Ca to do my EDM work mostly on head studs
for
> WBX
> engines
> Jerry's broken drill and tap they can handle it BUT maybe its time to
take
> step back and look at the bigger picture
> and consider a good used head or a new pair of heads or A fresh
longblock
> I have any and all of those options available here at the engine
exchange
> how can I help you
>
> Bob Donalds
> Boston engine
> 508 358 6264
> in the shop today and tomorrow afternoon working on my own vans
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Evan Mac Donald" <macdonald1987@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 9:04 AM
> Subject: Re: exaust removal woes
>
>
> > The process is usually called "EDM" and should be easier to find if
> > searched for that way. Basically, a high-energy arc discharge is
used to
> > vaporize the metal at the point of the electrode. Kind of like arc
> welding
> > in reverse. Many prototype parts shops use this process to cut
metal
> > plate, and also to bore small diameter, deep holes. Since there is
no
> > actual "bit" removing the metal, it cannot break off and get stuck.
> > Changing the voltage / amperage parameters allows for better
removal of
> > different materials. It may be cheaper, though, to get a new
head...
> >
> > pdooley <psdooley@VERIZON.NET> wrote: Even "good" bits will have a
heck
> > of a time drilling through a tungsten
> > carbide drill bit.
> >
> > The one method I have heard about to do this is spark erosion.
> > Apparently some kind of device is hooked up which sends a
concentrated
> > spark
> > through the broken off bit and erodes it away.
> > Sounds pretty slick, but that's all I know about it.
> > I have never seen it done or know about equipment availability.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
Behalf
> Of
> > dylan friedman
> > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 10:36 PM
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: Re: exaust removal woes
> >
> > to do it the right way and have it work when you are finished, the
head
> > should come off and use a drill press and good bits to make a hole
for
> an
> > extractor. I have had similar issues in the past. I don't mess with
it
> in
> > the van. I pull them and do it so it will last and not make matters
> worse.
> >
> > dylan
> >
> > craig cowan
> > wrote: So today my day at work started
> > as any would (except discovering the trash
> > truck put a sizeable dent in the nose of the vanagon......which
will be
> > repaired free of charge), and the mecahnics at my work started
working
> on
> > my
> > vanagon. I popped in from time to time to check the progress. The
goal
> was
> > to replace the manifold gasket at cylinder 1, so the manifold had
to
> come
> > off as the studs were damaged. Of the 4 bolts that connected to the
> heads
> > and 2 that connected to the collection pipe (1.9L) The collection
pipe
> > bolts
> > came right off, and 3 of the head nuts. One was not so lucky. It
snapped
> > and
> > the mechanic welded a nut to the stud and started backing it
out.....it
> > was
> > working really well....till it broke the stud halfway inside the
head.
> > So......out comes the tungsten carbide drill bits.......a very
accurate
> > and
> > perfectly executed drilling went horribly wrong when the bit broke
off
> > flush
> > with the head. "You cant drill out a drill bit" boss mechanic
> said.....so
> > over the course of the weekend the entire staff is trying to figure
out
> > how
> > to fix this without removing the head (or even if the head comes
> > off.....what do you do?)
> >
> > Sudgestions so far include "Burn it out" though i dont know how,
> "Stronger
> > Drill Bits" which are on order but have low expectations, and
"replace
> the
> > head".
> >
> > Any ideas are greatly appreciated!!!!!!
> >
> > -Craig
> > '85GL (which isnt having its best day)
>
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