Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 03:18:51 -0400
Reply-To: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Subject: Re: Decisions,
decisions which conversion-didn't intend to start a power war
In-Reply-To: <cf2.14970f7e.33dad0b3@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Sweet, thanks for the clarification and keeping things on track we so
easily get distracted ha. Let's start breaking it down. First thing
I'll assume you are only interested in turnkeys and not kits? This is
what it sounds like from the pricing you've mentioned, but correct me
if I'm wrong.
Ok, installation. I can't speak for the vanaru but the bostig
average's 12 hours, on the ground using ramps and a cherry picker.
Fastest was Jason M. from WI in 9 hours solo install on the ground.
Pro-Am kayaker, not a mechanic. Our install manual can be found in
our support site forums so you can see what it entails ahead of time.
I guess upgrading the 3-4 in prep for a lot more torque isn't a bad
idea since you're going to be doing the labor anyway, but I'm not sure
you should couple this to just one or the other, perhaps assume you do
this rebuild anyhow regardless of conversion type, it would help you
reach your goal of increasing total reliability.
The OBDII capabilities you mean strictly OBDII capabilities then you
are right, they are mandated to meet the same spec. However, if by
OBDII you meant more generally interfaces to the ECU, then they are
not the same. Both have OBDII, so code readers and OBDII dataloggers
can be used with either. However, the zetec also comes with a handheld
multi-function tool that is a code scanner, re-flasher, and advanced
datalogger. With our conversion we control not only hardware
development, but the firmware development as well. As you can reflash
a router with upgraded firmware, you can upgrade the zetec ECU with
our authored firmware by downloading it from our website or via email.
It is precisely this capability that allows the zetec to run e85 out
of the box, and to bolt on a major power adder later and upgrade the
engine management strategy to reflect the change in hardware.
Additionally, the logger can log every advanced vendor specific metric
that is available to the ECU. Anything the ECU sees you can see, and
log at a datarate hundreds of times faster than the OBDII interface.
The upshot of that ranges from pure academic curiosity to the fact
that the log files can be emailed to us, and played back here. It is
actually entirely possible for me to tune a van in Hawaii from boston
via email, which is precisely what will happen in the next two weeks
as our #5 customer Rich just got back home from a deployment and now
wants to pick up the supercharger and be the first one on the big
island with one. I'll email him the supercharger tune, he'll install
the blower kit, reflash his ecu, then we'll log it to double check,
and we're done it's perfect. You also have digital dashboard functions
via laptop as well. You can put any ECU metric on a simulated gauge
cluster on screen, and use them as any gauge you like.(You asked for
feature comparisons right?)
Maintenance. Yeah pretty much everything made is easier to maintain
than a VAG product.. that includes subaru and ford. However, there is
a distinction here, there are varying levels of difficulty, not just
black or white. The zetec is easier to access in just about every way
I can think of, and the labor times for doing jobs should reflect
that, additionally the parts are less expensive and more plentiful for
the zetec. While the parts cost and availability may not be a problem
for subarus, the zetec will still be more available and less
expensive, even if only because there are also simply fewer parts,
both moving and non-moving. You brought up the timing belt as an
example of comparable things. As far as I know, the zetec is much
simpler in design and process in changing the belt. We'll put together
a video to show what we mean, it's a very clever setup. The SOHC subie
is likely fast, easy, and inexpensive as ben said, but I can't imagine
it's as easy, fast, or as cheap to do as the zetec. You can start
testing this yourself... test the first step in doing the belt, call a
local dealer or parts store and find out how much and how available
the parts are, just as you would do if you were doing them for real.
In the zetec case simply ask for parts for an 03 ford focus with DOHC
engine. In the case of the subie if I'm not mistaken try the 99 legacy
sohc 2.5.
The zetec is non-interference, aren't all EJs after 97 interference?
As to the question is the $3k worth it? I guess that depends entirely
on how much money you have ha... neither brady nor myself have one,
they are too expensive for us too but after driving one lent to us by
our customer John 3k miles, if I could afford one yes it would be
worth it ha.
You could indeed go with the SVX, you mentioned maintenance, and
power. The trick for maximizing total reliability is to shoot for the
minimum power levels you can be happy with. No matter where you fall
preference-wise, this rule is true. Don't forget that power levels is
only one difference between the SVX and zetec also. We don't have to
make as much power for the same performance since the zetec
combination is somewhere around 150-190lbs lighter than the svx. I
drove both SVXs and the supercharged zetec side by side at SDM... it's
a toss up honestly, both great. The supercharged zetec is quieter
though, mostly because there is no intake resonance at all because
there's a big set of teflon coated rotors in the way! AFAIK Warren C
was the only person that drove both and preferred the subie without
regard for the zetec.
I would say that lastly, evaluate what your longer term plans really
are. If you are likely to keep your van till the day you die, the
zetec will pay off in the long run as it's affordable to buy
"refresher" complete engines down the road and always have a low
mileage engine in the van, the stainless will pay off too. If you only
need another 250K, then the cost of the zetec is indeed quite high,
you could wait for builders that start building and selling zetec DIY
kits as turnkeys, or if you can't benefit from the other features
that make it stand out, you can't really go wrong with the subie
either. Which features are more important to you from what you now
know David?
Jim Akiba
On 7/27/07, Dvdclarksn@aol.com <Dvdclarksn@aol.com> wrote:
> Hey guys the purpose of my post :
"a comparison of all of the features for the money invested."
Also important to me would be the ease of installation.
I work in the service department of a Honda dealership and would have
access to a variety of tools lifts etc.
I am certainly impressed by the power that the subaru 2.5 has overt
the Zetech (35 hp difference right) but would also have to factor in a
very useful upgrade to the 3rd and
4th gears that would benefit the Subaru conversion (Daryl at AA transmission
would be great for this).
Factoring in the cost of this (shipping and opening up the case to
swap out 2 gears) might reduce the difference in price between the two
by another $500.00-750.00 maybe?
Maybe the only useful feature that both engines could provide that is
comparable would be OBD II capabilities. Both have relatively easy
maintenance (timing belt replacement
> in particular) and I don't know if I have heard whether or not the Subi 2.5
> is a noninterference engine like the zetech or not. I would change the
> timing belt about every 90-100k if it were an interference engine to avoid
> valve damage if the belt did break to be safe (BTDT with my Honda customers
> that like to play the odds!-expensive). The other features that the zetech
> has are niceties that would give peace of mind and would avoid a total
> breakdown but are they worth the extra bucks? The supercharger is intriguing
> but is it worth the extra $3,000 which would bring the uninstalled price to
> $13,000+ dollars? It seems that you could go with the 6 cylinder 3.3 Subaru
> that has slightly more power for maybe half of what you would spend on the
> Zetech but would still want to upgrade the tranny and maybe also the axles
> as well. I would need to go to the Vanaru site for more info here. Don't get
> me wrong; I love the idea of power for my Westy and will start a conversion
> fund now (mayo jar next to my mgb 8cyl. conversion mayo jar!). I just want
> the best combination of not only power but reliability and other features in
> an engine that are important to me like cost of repair and availability of
> parts. I have almost 250k much appreciated miles on my 90 Westfalia now as
> it's a daily driver and would love nothing more than to get that much again.
> Why not if you love the package and have replaced/rebuilt everything else on
> the van. It's still cheaper than a new car payment/depreciation and is just
> much more fun than anything else to drive and camp in. Sorry for the lengthy
> post but lets all keep it friendly and enjoy comparing notes and thoughts.
>
> David Clarkson
> Loyal fan of the Westfalia/Vanagon
>
>
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