Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:26:28 -0700
Reply-To: Mark Keller <kelphoto@TELUS.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Mark Keller <kelphoto@TELUS.NET>
Subject: Re: Hybrid Engine Conversion
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Jim,
I do think that the smallish engine/ engine compartment sizing that the
vanagon has means it is ideally configured to benefit from a hybrid
approach. In that a hybrid is implemented by using a smaller sized ICE
to start with means that Vanagons were somewhat pre-hybrid
manufactured. Cost of impleenting the new technology isn't necessarily
a decision point. It seems worth cruching the numbers from the
suppliers listed. The Kta site reference say $3150. This not a hybid,
but does give a rough approximate of the cost of similiary sized
componets. Ie a smaller motor,
KTA EV Conversion Kit #1...suitable for propelling 500 to 1500 lb.
motorcycle or ultralight kit car...at speeds up to 55 MPH...48 to 72
V...basic kit without extras includes: ADV. DC #K91-4003...CURTIS
#1209B-6402...CURTIS #PB-6...ALBRIGHT #SW-180B ...FERRAZ/SHAWMUT
#A15QS400-4...G.E. #TQD-150...KTA SWITCHPLATE...WESTBERG #A2C6-30 &
A2C5-3 (48 V) or A2C5-28 (54-72 V)...DELTEC #MKB-500-50 & MKA-50-50...K
& W #BC-20...MAGNECRAFT #W389ACX-9...PRESTOFLEX #4 GA Cable...MAGNA
Lugs, Heat Shrink Pieces...10-pos. Barrier Strip...Welding Cable Tool Kit
$2750 to $3150
approx.
Ultimately a waterboxer could be hybrid electric with direct injected
propane and a screw supercharger --that would be: interesting,
powerful, economical and clean!
In that flywheel conservation of momentum isn't being practiced by DIY,
it may not be ultimately practical in expense or man hours to complete.
This following site is somewhat applicable. I couldn't find a enthusiast
kit or working model, as in the ICE-Electric hybrid approach.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978PhDT.........6U
Off topic, As to marine use efficiency the site is a for pure
ICE-Electric setup. All modern cruise ships use this format, like
trains do. They utilized an A/C motor pod beneath the vessel for
propulsion and the ICE diesel in the hull. The reason is , from the OSSA
site explanation on fuel efficiency, I realize this is marketing
oriented but then again, we have to "read around" marketing hype all the
time. OSSA or Glacier Bay seems to be the real deal though, if you look
through their site.
" This means that diesel-electric systems can be much better at
"self-optimizing" to accommodate varying loads than are conventional
systems. At sea, load conditions change by the trip (number of
passengers), by the hour (wind and tide) and by the minute (going up a
wave or surfing down it). These variations provide a significant
opportunity for fuel savings."
/Seems to me hybrid would not be a good fit for a marine application, varying
rpm, load, and regen braking are where the hybrid is compelling as you
pointed out. I believe that in our vans(typically lot's of hwy miles) the
total thermal efficiency is going to be low enough that other technologies
will make more sense before current hybrid technology for efficiency. For
me, because I use my 9 pass. as a daily driver, and it's mostly city miles,
it might be great from an efficiency standpoint. From a cost standpoint it's
still really high. There is another even simpler way to have some of the
exact same benefits would mentioned. Good old flywheels. Imagine a monster
flywheel with axis of rotation up/down under the van dead center. It would
be cool because not only could you use it to store, and retrieve energy like
a hybrid system, but it would gyroscopically stabilize the van in the
correct plane and in theory would be more efficient itself at storing
mechanical energy because there is no transformation required. Make it as
heavy as one of the hybrid battery packs as large in diameter as possible
with the weight biased to the outside edge, and spin it as fast as
realistically possible and I wonder what kind of thermal efficiency you
could reach in city driving./
Jim Akiba
On 10/4/07, Mark Keller <kelphoto@telus.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi gang,
>>
>> With the question of making a hybrid a I'm a bit of a neophyte, but In
>> researching a hybrid install for a marine customer I came across a
>> couple of websites that explain to some of us why putting an electric
>> motor on a ICE, internal combustion engine, can actually improve the ICE
>> fuel mileage, and in course have beneficial effects on emissions. I've
>> summarized it below and included the websites at the bottom
>>
>> The Basic benefiting principle is that ICE are not equally efficient at
>> converting fuel to usable work at all RPM ranges. Most efficient is at
>> combination of gearing, 75% throttle and RPM. Least efficient at idle
>> and anything less than 75% throttle. Hybrid Engine controllers
>> supplement the ICE with the electrical motor at the less efficient ICE
>> RPMs, and recover some of the electrical energy in braking and when at
>> efficient ICE RPMs.
>>
>> The other benefits: ( Inductively thinking is all I have to go on so be
>> forewarned). Engine life would be enhanced, since it's overall load is
>> reduced by transferring electrical power in demand situations where the
>> ICE is not at it's most thermally efficient RPM range. This "power" is
>> partly free, in that the EC, engine controller, recovers electrical
>> energy by charging the batteries, which is a "braking effect" on the
>> vehicle. Brakes on the vehicle last longer, since they see less
>> stopping momentum. You get the idea.
>>
>> The rest of the electrical power comes from two sources. When the
>> engine is at cruise RPM, aka a efficient thermal RPM and the load on the
>> engine permits, charging of the batteries takes place. The EC takes
>> care of this "seamlessly". The other charge is the nightly plug in.
>>
>> In my opinion, while none of the above operations occur at ideal rpms to
>> the power/generation electric motor, or the ICE, a recognizable benefit
>> does occur. I say this because in a true application, the ICE would only
>> operate at it's optimum thermal efficient RPM in order to supply the
>> electric motor. This is not completely a windfall though as pound for
>> pound, the electric motor needed to replace the ICE's torque is heavy,
>> some 600lbs. Nor is a 50kw electric motor Cheap!
>>
>> Another good thing is that the waterboxer is light at 265lbs and the
>> engine's combustion chamber designe is particular efficient at cruise
>> rpm. Even more so with an updated EC. So in my opinion a pretty
>> competitive application of technology to the waterboxer.
>>
>> In another twist I think that the elusive "more torque" question is
>> solved by the electric motor being there to help get extra boost to move
>> the vehicle when needed. This is subtle but the key is that the torque
>> boost helps by getting the waterboxer RPMs up to it's power range. This
>> is important because the engine is so weak at lower RPMs, I believe we
>> would see a greater benefit than other vehilce/engine combinations.
>>
>> Thanks for listening in
>>
>> Mark
>> In order of relevance
>> Diesel-electric marine propulsion systems and accessories.
>> <
>> http://www.ossapowerlite.com/tech_library/fuel_efficiency/fuel_efficiency.htm
>
>
>>> >
>>
>>
>> KTA Services Inc. < http://www.kta-ev.com/>
>> L.M.C. Manufacturers of Permanent Magnet DC Motors
>> <http://www.lemcoltd.com/performance.htm>
>> Curtis Instruments- Instrumentation, motor speed controllers, battery
>> chargers <http://www.curtisinst.com/>
>>
>> DetectorTechnologies.com - Product Catalog
>> < http://www.detectortechnologies.com/store/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=5
>
>
>>> >
>>
>>
>> ASMO Marine <http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/00.shtml>
>> taylorproductolinecard-bilingual.pdf (application/pdf Object)
>> <http://www.taylorproducto.ca/taylorproductolinecard-bilingual.pdf>
>> http://www.steamboating.net/
>>
>> Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site
>> <http://boatdesign.net/>
>> has a Hybrid forum under the propulsion section.
>> Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site
>> <http://boatdesign.net/>
>
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