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Date:         Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:39:13 -0700
Reply-To:     David Marshall <mailinglist@FASTFORWARD.CA>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         David Marshall <mailinglist@FASTFORWARD.CA>
Subject:      Re: Hybrid Engine Conversion
Comments: To: Mark Keller <kelphoto@TELUS.NET>
In-Reply-To:  <47052244.5010301@telus.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

To make a hybrid would be rather simple (to a point!) thing to do in a Vanagon. Personally I would leave the rear engine alone and not install anything back there. What you need to do is get the front end from a Syncro and get the electric motor to run on the front wheels. You have the whole underside of the van for the engine and battery storage...

David Marshall

http://www.hasenwerk.ca http://www.fastforward.ca

Box 4153, Quesnel BC, Canada V2J 3J2

On Thu, October 4, 2007 10:26, Mark Keller wrote: > Jim, > > I do think that the smallish engine/ engine compartment sizing that the > vanagon has means it is ideally configured to benefit from a hybrid > approach. In that a hybrid is implemented by using a smaller sized ICE > to start with means that Vanagons were somewhat pre-hybrid > manufactured. Cost of impleenting the new technology isn't necessarily > a decision point. It seems worth cruching the numbers from the > suppliers listed. The Kta site reference say $3150. This not a hybid, > but does give a rough approximate of the cost of similiary sized > componets. Ie a smaller motor, > > KTA EV Conversion Kit #1...suitable for propelling 500 to 1500 lb. > motorcycle or ultralight kit car...at speeds up to 55 MPH...48 to 72 > V...basic kit without extras includes: ADV. DC #K91-4003...CURTIS > #1209B-6402...CURTIS #PB-6...ALBRIGHT #SW-180B ...FERRAZ/SHAWMUT > #A15QS400-4...G.E. #TQD-150...KTA SWITCHPLATE...WESTBERG #A2C6-30 & > A2C5-3 (48 V) or A2C5-28 (54-72 V)...DELTEC #MKB-500-50 & MKA-50-50...K > & W #BC-20...MAGNECRAFT #W389ACX-9...PRESTOFLEX #4 GA Cable...MAGNA > Lugs, Heat Shrink Pieces...10-pos. Barrier Strip...Welding Cable Tool Kit > > $2750 to $3150 > > approx. > > Ultimately a waterboxer could be hybrid electric with direct injected > propane and a screw supercharger --that would be: interesting, > powerful, economical and clean! > > In that flywheel conservation of momentum isn't being practiced by DIY, > it may not be ultimately practical in expense or man hours to complete. > This following site is somewhat applicable. I couldn't find a enthusiast > kit or working model, as in the ICE-Electric hybrid approach. > > http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978PhDT.........6U > > Off topic, As to marine use efficiency the site is a for pure > ICE-Electric setup. All modern cruise ships use this format, like > trains do. They utilized an A/C motor pod beneath the vessel for > propulsion and the ICE diesel in the hull. The reason is , from the OSSA > site explanation on fuel efficiency, I realize this is marketing > oriented but then again, we have to "read around" marketing hype all the > time. OSSA or Glacier Bay seems to be the real deal though, if you look > through their site. > > " This means that diesel-electric systems can be much better at > "self-optimizing" to accommodate varying loads than are conventional > systems. At sea, load conditions change by the trip (number of > passengers), by the hour (wind and tide) and by the minute (going up a > wave or surfing down it). These variations provide a significant > opportunity for fuel savings." > > /Seems to me hybrid would not be a good fit for a marine application, > varying > rpm, load, and regen braking are where the hybrid is compelling as you > pointed out. I believe that in our vans(typically lot's of hwy miles) the > total thermal efficiency is going to be low enough that other technologies > will make more sense before current hybrid technology for efficiency. For > me, because I use my 9 pass. as a daily driver, and it's mostly city > miles, > it might be great from an efficiency standpoint. From a cost standpoint > it's > still really high. There is another even simpler way to have some of the > exact same benefits would mentioned. Good old flywheels. Imagine a monster > flywheel with axis of rotation up/down under the van dead center. It would > be cool because not only could you use it to store, and retrieve energy > like > a hybrid system, but it would gyroscopically stabilize the van in the > correct plane and in theory would be more efficient itself at storing > mechanical energy because there is no transformation required. Make it as > heavy as one of the hybrid battery packs as large in diameter as possible > with the weight biased to the outside edge, and spin it as fast as > realistically possible and I wonder what kind of thermal efficiency you > could reach in city driving./ >

> Jim Akiba > > On 10/4/07, Mark Keller <kelphoto@telus.net> wrote: > >>> >>> Hi gang, >>> >>> With the question of making a hybrid a I'm a bit of a neophyte, but In >>> researching a hybrid install for a marine customer I came across a >>> couple of websites that explain to some of us why putting an electric >>> motor on a ICE, internal combustion engine, can actually improve the >>> ICE >>> fuel mileage, and in course have beneficial effects on emissions. I've >>> summarized it below and included the websites at the bottom >>> >>> The Basic benefiting principle is that ICE are not equally efficient >>> at >>> converting fuel to usable work at all RPM ranges. Most efficient is at >>> combination of gearing, 75% throttle and RPM. Least efficient at idle >>> and anything less than 75% throttle. Hybrid Engine controllers >>> supplement the ICE with the electrical motor at the less efficient ICE >>> RPMs, and recover some of the electrical energy in braking and when at >>> efficient ICE RPMs. >>> >>> The other benefits: ( Inductively thinking is all I have to go on so be >>> forewarned). Engine life would be enhanced, since it's overall load is >>> reduced by transferring electrical power in demand situations where the >>> ICE is not at it's most thermally efficient RPM range. This "power" is >>> partly free, in that the EC, engine controller, recovers electrical >>> energy by charging the batteries, which is a "braking effect" on the >>> vehicle. Brakes on the vehicle last longer, since they see less >>> stopping momentum. You get the idea. >>> >>> The rest of the electrical power comes from two sources. When the >>> engine is at cruise RPM, aka a efficient thermal RPM and the load on >>> the >>> engine permits, charging of the batteries takes place. The EC takes >>> care of this "seamlessly". The other charge is the nightly plug in. >>> >>> In my opinion, while none of the above operations occur at ideal rpms >>> to >>> the power/generation electric motor, or the ICE, a recognizable benefit >>> does occur. I say this because in a true application, the ICE would >>> only >>> operate at it's optimum thermal efficient RPM in order to supply the >>> electric motor. This is not completely a windfall though as pound for >>> pound, the electric motor needed to replace the ICE's torque is heavy, >>> some 600lbs. Nor is a 50kw electric motor Cheap! >>> >>> Another good thing is that the waterboxer is light at 265lbs and the >>> engine's combustion chamber designe is particular efficient at cruise >>> rpm. Even more so with an updated EC. So in my opinion a pretty >>> competitive application of technology to the waterboxer. >>> >>> In another twist I think that the elusive "more torque" question is >>> solved by the electric motor being there to help get extra boost to >>> move >>> the vehicle when needed. This is subtle but the key is that the torque >>> boost helps by getting the waterboxer RPMs up to it's power range. >>> This >>> is important because the engine is so weak at lower RPMs, I believe we >>> would see a greater benefit than other vehilce/engine combinations. >>> >>> Thanks for listening in >>> >>> Mark >>> In order of relevance >>> Diesel-electric marine propulsion systems and accessories. >>> < >>> http://www.ossapowerlite.com/tech_library/fuel_efficiency/fuel_efficiency.htm >> >> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> KTA Services Inc. < http://www.kta-ev.com/> >>> L.M.C. Manufacturers of Permanent Magnet DC Motors >>> <http://www.lemcoltd.com/performance.htm> >>> Curtis Instruments- Instrumentation, motor speed controllers, battery >>> chargers <http://www.curtisinst.com/> >>> >>> DetectorTechnologies.com - Product Catalog >>> < >>> http://www.detectortechnologies.com/store/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=5 >> >> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> ASMO Marine <http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/00.shtml> >>> taylorproductolinecard-bilingual.pdf (application/pdf Object) >>> <http://www.taylorproducto.ca/taylorproductolinecard-bilingual.pdf> >>> http://www.steamboating.net/ >>> >>> Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site >>> <http://boatdesign.net/> >>> has a Hybrid forum under the propulsion section. >>> Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site >>> <http://boatdesign.net/> >> >


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