Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:33:34 -0400
Reply-To: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM>
Subject: Re: Hybrid Engine Conversion
In-Reply-To: <5d903de80710041138h1e780b7amdfdbb3d757675907@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Yeah it would be a big issue. It would certainly be really weird feeling ...
but body roll could be kept to almost nothing ha doubt if it's a good idea,
but it's fun to think about.. just like the hybrid. Fun to think about, but
sadly not really worth doing at the moment.
On 10/4/07, Karin Baker & Raymond Paquette <raymondpaquette@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Jim
>
> I've often wondered how about this. Ultimately, you could keep storing
> and removing energy from the flywheel as your power needs changed-allowing
> ICE to run at a more constant speed.
>
> Seems like a great idea, but I wonder about the gyroscopic effect. I
> think you could end up with some very odd and dangerous struggles with
> steering and handling.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Raymond
>
> On 10/4/07, Jim Akiba <syncrolist@bostig.com> wrote:
> >
> > Seems to me hybrid would not be a good fit for a marine application,
> > varying
> > rpm, load, and regen braking are where the hybrid is compelling as you
> > pointed out. I believe that in our vans(typically lot's of hwy miles)
> > the
> > total thermal efficiency is going to be low enough that other
> > technologies
> > will make more sense before current hybrid technology for efficiency.
> > For
> > me, because I use my 9 pass. as a daily driver, and it's mostly city
> > miles,
> > it might be great from an efficiency standpoint. From a cost standpoint
> > it's
> > still really high. There is another even simpler way to have some of
> > the
> > exact same benefits would mentioned. Good old flywheels. Imagine a
> > monster
> > flywheel with axis of rotation up/down under the van dead center. It
> > would
> > be cool because not only could you use it to store, and retrieve energy
> > like
> > a hybrid system, but it would gyroscopically stabilize the van in the
> > correct plane and in theory would be more efficient itself at storing
> > mechanical energy because there is no transformation required. Make it
> > as
> > heavy as one of the hybrid battery packs as large in diameter as
> > possible
> > with the weight biased to the outside edge, and spin it as fast as
> > realistically possible and I wonder what kind of thermal efficiency you
> > could reach in city driving.
> >
> > Jim Akiba
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/4/07, Mark Keller < kelphoto@telus.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi gang,
> > >
> > > With the question of making a hybrid a I'm a bit of a neophyte, but In
> > > researching a hybrid install for a marine customer I came across a
> > > couple of websites that explain to some of us why putting an electric
> > > motor on a ICE, internal combustion engine, can actually improve the
> > ICE
> > > fuel mileage, and in course have beneficial effects on emissions. I've
> >
> > > summarized it below and included the websites at the bottom
> > >
> > > The Basic benefiting principle is that ICE are not equally efficient
> > at
> > > converting fuel to usable work at all RPM ranges. Most efficient is
> > at
> > > combination of gearing, 75% throttle and RPM. Least efficient at idle
> > > and anything less than 75% throttle. Hybrid Engine controllers
> > > supplement the ICE with the electrical motor at the less efficient ICE
> >
> > > RPMs, and recover some of the electrical energy in braking and when at
> > > efficient ICE RPMs.
> > >
> > > The other benefits: ( Inductively thinking is all I have to go on so
> > be
> > > forewarned). Engine life would be enhanced, since it's overall load
> > is
> > > reduced by transferring electrical power in demand situations where
> > the
> > > ICE is not at it's most thermally efficient RPM range. This "power" is
> > > partly free, in that the EC, engine controller, recovers electrical
> > > energy by charging the batteries, which is a "braking effect" on the
> > > vehicle. Brakes on the vehicle last longer, since they see less
> > > stopping momentum. You get the idea.
> > >
> > > The rest of the electrical power comes from two sources. When the
> > > engine is at cruise RPM, aka a efficient thermal RPM and the load on
> > the
> > > engine permits, charging of the batteries takes place. The EC takes
> > > care of this "seamlessly". The other charge is the nightly plug in.
> > >
> > > In my opinion, while none of the above operations occur at ideal rpms
> > to
> > > the power/generation electric motor, or the ICE, a recognizable
> > benefit
> > > does occur. I say this because in a true application, the ICE would
> > only
> > > operate at it's optimum thermal efficient RPM in order to supply the
> > > electric motor. This is not completely a windfall though as pound for
> > > pound, the electric motor needed to replace the ICE's torque is heavy,
> >
> > > some 600lbs. Nor is a 50kw electric motor Cheap!
> > >
> > > Another good thing is that the waterboxer is light at 265lbs and the
> > > engine's combustion chamber designe is particular efficient at cruise
> > > rpm. Even more so with an updated EC. So in my opinion a pretty
> > > competitive application of technology to the waterboxer.
> > >
> > > In another twist I think that the elusive "more torque" question is
> > > solved by the electric motor being there to help get extra boost to
> > move
> > > the vehicle when needed. This is subtle but the key is that the
> > torque
> > > boost helps by getting the waterboxer RPMs up to it's power
> > range. This
> > > is important because the engine is so weak at lower RPMs, I believe we
> > > would see a greater benefit than other vehilce/engine combinations.
> > >
> > > Thanks for listening in
> > >
> > > Mark
> > > In order of relevance
> > > Diesel-electric marine propulsion systems and accessories.
> > > <
> > > http://www.ossapowerlite.com/tech_library/fuel_efficiency/fuel_efficiency.htm
> >
> > > >
> > > KTA Services Inc. < http://www.kta-ev.com/>
> > > L.M.C. Manufacturers of Permanent Magnet DC Motors
> > > < http://www.lemcoltd.com/performance.htm>
> > > Curtis Instruments- Instrumentation, motor speed controllers, battery
> > > chargers <http://www.curtisinst.com/>
> > >
> > > DetectorTechnologies.com - Product Catalog
> > > < http://www.detectortechnologies.com/store/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=5
> >
> > > >
> > > ASMO Marine <http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/00.shtml>
> > > taylorproductolinecard-bilingual.pdf (application/pdf Object)
> > > <http://www.taylorproducto.ca/taylorproductolinecard-bilingual.pdf>
> > > http://www.steamboating.net/
> > >
> > > Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site
> > > <http://boatdesign.net/>
> > > has a Hybrid forum under the propulsion section.
> > > Boat Design Net - the Boat Design and Boat Building Site
> > > <http://boatdesign.net/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > < http://www.taylorproducto.ca/taylorproductolinecard-bilingual.pdf >
> > > <http://www.steamboating.net/>
> > >
> >
>
>
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