Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:23:39 -0700
Reply-To: Michael Elliott <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Michael Elliott <camping.elliott@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Definitive test for Hall > ECU?
In-Reply-To: <bfb5ccc40710301837q30ac516ct41841d664b1ca5cf@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hm. With the vacuum hoses hooked up, my 1.9l shows a difference of 45
degrees between idle advance and 3500 rpm full advance. That means that if
I set idle (with idle stabilizer bypassed) to 5* ATDC, I measure 40
degrees at 3500 rpm. But my engine is not super happy at 5* ATDC and wants
its throttle bypass turned pretty darn far out. I get smoother starts and
a bit more torque with idle set to 0* (TDC), but then I measure 45* at
full advance. This with my super-duper Sears timing light. Do these
numbers make sense to those of you who know this stuff?
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
KG6RCR
On 10/30/2007 6:37 PM Old Volks Home wrote:
> California does in fact check the timing with their test equipment and at
> the idle speed, not at full advance as per their test specifications. In
> Smog Check II test areas using the dyno, the idle timing is monitored,
> but the timing during high rpm/load test test is not monitored, but the
> spark signal is monitored during all procedures of the entire test to detect
> mis-fires.
>
> As far as timing at full advance at 3800rpm for the 1.9, I would at least be
> sure your vacuum advance/retard can is able to hold vacuum at the high rpm
> (advance) and idle rpm (retard) loads and that yer spot-on at the factory
> recommendation. You really don't wanna exceed the 25 BTDC mechanical
> advance maximum @ 3800rpm, because the vacuum advance adds another 12
> degrees when functioning properly.
> --
> Jim Thompson
> 84 GL 1.9 "Gloria"
> 84 Westfalia 2.1 "Ole Putt"
> 73 K Ghia Coupe "Denise"
> 72 411 Station Wagon "Pug"
> oldvolkshome@gmail.com
> http://www.oldvolkshome.com
> ***********************************
> On 10/30/07, Karin Baker & Raymond Paquette <raymondpaquette@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Is there any reason not to rev it up and set the timing at maximum
>> advance? It's not the timing at idle that really matters, I think, so it
>> can just land wherever your worn out springs land it.
>>
>> Of course, I don' t know what the timing should be at max advance.
>>
>> Then again, don't CA smog check the actual timing, not just emissions?
>>
>> Anyone?
>>
>> Raymond
>>
>> On 10/30/07, Old Volks Home <oldvolkshome@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> For the past 10 years I have always run my timing on my 84 Automatic
>>> Westy
>>> at 0 (TDC) - runs smoother, best powerband transition and have no
>>> problem
>>> passing California smog at this setting.
>>>
>>> Why not 5 degrees ATDC? The 1.9 Distributor with the high mileage (180K
>>> on
>>> mine) on them tends to be a bit "worn" with tired advance
>>> springs/weights in
>>> the mechanical action and placing the timing at 0 in most instances
>>> (sometimes even up to 5 BTDC) compensates for the wear. Remember - the
>>> specs shown in Bentley and on my website are for brand new and low
>>> mileage
>>> distributors with fairly low to medium mileage engines for optimum
>>> performance.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if I would go as far as 10 degrees BTDC - yer living pretty
>>>
>>> darn close to the edge of pinging/detonation, these things run lean
>>> enough
>>> as it is. My rule of thumb is that if you have you time it that high,
>>> it's
>>> time to replace or rebuild the distributor with new springs, weights,
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> 10 half turns (actually is 5 full turns) from the bottoming out of the
>>> Throttle Bypass Screw is a bit high. Generally 3 full turns is the norm
>>> (it
>>> is on mine) and when I upgraded to Boston Bob's Euro-Digijet 2.1 ECU
>>> earlier
>>> this year I had to re-set clockwise about 3 half turns ( 1 1/2 full
>>> turns) in to bring the idle down (it went up). Checked the timing, but
>>> that
>>> didn't need resetting. Haven't had to mess with it since.
>>> --
>>> Jim Thompson
>>> 84 GL 1.9 "Gloria"
>>> 84 Westfalia 2.1 "Ole Putt"
>>> 73 K Ghia Coupe "Denise"
>>> 72 411 Station Wagon "Pug"
>>> oldvolkshome@gmail.com
>>> http://www.oldvolkshome.com
>>> ***********************************
>>> On 10/30/07, Michael Elliott <camping.elliott@gmail.com > wrote:
>>>> Thanks, Ken. You're not the first to suggest that while 5* ATDC can
>>> make
>>>> passing emissions easier -- and in California that's always a
>>>> consideration -- better performance is available closer to, or past,
>>> TDC.
>>>> I do a lot of mountain driving and don't want to ping the engine to
>>> death
>>>> so I might not enter deeply into BTDC territory.
>>>>
>>>> I am curious to see how getting closer to TDC affects the throttle
>>> bypass
>>>> screw adjustment. If 10 half-turns CCW from fully in is, as everyone
>>> says,
>>>> an unusually large amount to be needed in order to get the engine to
>>> idle
>>>> with the idle stabilizer bypassed, then something is fishy.
>>>>
>>>> But as Jim Thompson offered yesterday, I tend to get obsessive about
>>> these
>>>> things, about poking too deeply into the corners where my ignorance is
>>>> darkest and chasing my tail. That's two metaphors, mixed, I think.
>>>>
>>>> W/r/t the other things you suggested I might consider, my cylinders
>>> test
>>>> at 155, 155, 155, 135 and the manifold tests at 11'' Hg, which appears
>>> to
>>>> be the standard idle vacuum per Bentley's (inferred, see my top-rated
>>> blog
>>>> at http://camping.elliott.googlepages.com/poormileage). Others have
>>> posted
>>>> more inches of vacuum as being standard but I'm satisfied that 11'' is
>>>> pretty good. But thanks for mentioning them.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
>>>> 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
>>>> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
>>>> 74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
>>>> KG6RCR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/30/2007 4:21 AM Ken Wilford wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike, I usually set mine for 5-10 degrees BTDC. The 2.1l Vanagons
>>> were
>>>>> spec at 7 deg BTDC (if memory serves). The retarded timing setting
>>> for
>>>>> the 1.9l Vanagon is (I believe) a compromise for emissions testing.
>>>>> However I have set mine at 10 BTDC with much better driveability,
>>> power,
>>>>> etc. Never had any problems with pinging, or even getting through
>>>>> emissions tests (strict here in NJ).
>>>>> If you do this your idle should come up to where it should be
>>> without
>>>>> turning the screw to oblivion.
>>>>> Also you might want to check your valve adjustment. If the valves
>>>>> adjustment is too tight this can cause low manifold pressure
>>> (vacuum)
>>>>> and idling problems. A compression test would help in this area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>>> Ken Wilford
>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>> www.vanagain.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Elliott wrote:
>>>>>> Hm. I already did all that. Had a friend check my timing, too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bentley's says 5 degrees ATDC for the 1.9l (p. 24.18). Is there a
>>>>>> reason I
>>>>>> should be doing 10 degrees?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
>>>>>> 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
>>>>>> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
>>>>>> 74 Utility Trailer. Ladybug Trailer, Inc., San Juan Capistrano
>>>>>> KG6RCR
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/29/2007 9:30 PM Geza Polony wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 10 full turns is way way way off the mark. This is an indication
>>> of a
>>>>>>> problem. The first thing I'd check is the ignition timing. Free,
>>> too.
>>>>>>> Start by setting the timing, with the idle stabilizer bypassed, to
>>>>>>> 10* ATDC,
>>>>>>> hoses attached, 950 rpm. You should be able to get it to run fine
>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>> idle stabilizer out. Then reattach.
>>
|